Can a Streetcar cost less than a Faux Trolley?

[Dashing Dan]

The basic problem is that you barely have enough space between the curbs for even three lanes.

Only if you want 12' wide lanes, which should be discouraged on a street like Park.  All a streetcar would need is a single lane and an occassional passing siding.  So it appears that there is proper room between the existing curbing if there was a desire to not run such a service in mixed traffic.

32' between curbs = 3 10' lanes plus 1' on each side for gutters.

[tufsu1]

I can assure you that the travel lanes on Park Street are not 8' wide....they are at least 9'

[Dashing Dan]

I measured the lanes myself.  The distance between the curbs is 32'.  You don't forget something like that.

[wsansewjs]

I have personally seen a gaming forum has a thread that went on over 29,000 pages. That is one big bum to the server's resources.

-Josh

[thelakelander]

The basic problem is that you barely have enough space between the curbs for even three lanes.

Only if you want 12' wide lanes, which should be discouraged on a street like Park.  All a streetcar would need is a single lane and an occassional passing siding.  So it appears that there is proper room between the existing curbing if there was a desire to not run such a service in mixed traffic.

32' between curbs = 3 10' lanes plus 1' on each side for gutters.

If that's what it is, leave two travel lanes at their current width and give the remaining 16' to fixed transit.  You only need around 12' in width for a bi-directional modern streetcar lane, so you'll have an extra 4' to use for greenery and bulb out areas.

[Dashing Dan]

The "extra" 4' would be needed for widening two 8' travel lanes to 10'.  Believe me it's really tight through there.

[Ocklawaha]

Looks like everyone is right, the streets "official" right-of-way has obviously been violated.  Still like Myrtle best... Riverside SKYWAY, Park BRT, Myrtle Streetcar... Yeah, so it's 30 years away from completion, but isn't that what we call VISION and PLANNING?

62' right-of-way - about 57' usable

51' right-of-way - wide open

OCKLAWAHA

[middleman]

Again, your flying in the face of documented experience and mountains of evidence. When I first proposed the streetcar system in Jacksonville, essentially the same route planed today, a regional marketing agency involved in the project did a study and estimated 500,000 unique passengers a year would visit Jacksonville JUST TO RIDE THE STREETCARS. How many visitors do you think we have gotten from our fake PCT trucks buses?

OCKLAWAHA

Sorry Ock... I don't have time to answer to all of your response, but since this was one of most outrageous of your claims, can you please share with us the marketing study that determined that "an estimated 500,000 unique passengers a year would visit Jacksonville JUST TO RIDE THE STREETCARS." ?

I assume since currently Jacksonville DT is an absolute ZERO as a tourist destination, that for a streetcar line alone to bring 500K new tourists a year, seems like a wee bit of a stretch, don't you?

Look y'all, if Jax actually had DT tourist destinations like Tampa has, a Streetcar would make sense, just like it does it Tampa. But 500K of new visitors each year just to visit a Streetcar line, when there is nothing else? Sorry I'm not that gullible. I assume the folks you were pitching the streetcar line to weren't that gullible either.

I think a streetcar line would work and would attract lots of riders if
1) You put it somewhere there is ALREADY attractions which people would want easy access between. A line from Atlantic to Jax Beach comes to mind. Or perhaps a loop around St Augustine.
2) A DT Jax line would work if PEOPLE LIVED DOWN TOWN!!!. And also if there was a real destinations on the route between DT and Riverside. Right now there are a few office buildings and most of those are half-empty.
3) A DT Jax line running to Union Station would work, if Union Station was actually used as a transportation hub. Put a commuter rail station there and now we are talking.
4) And what the hell are you pushing Myrtle Avenue for??? This area is the armpit of the city. The city is having a hard time getting new development on Riverside. Me suspects the gentrification of Myrtle might be several decades off.

Look guys, I know you guys all love your rail, but spending that kind of money and hoping the it will instantly bring new development sound suspiciously like what they said about the Skyway. Don't you think it would be a bit more prudent to find ways to bring people back to the City first, THEN build your streetcars?

[thelakelander]

Spending what kind of money?  Also, when did people start equating mass transit as being only for tourist?  Am I missing something here?  Last, infrastructure spurs growth, not the other way around.  If this wasn't the case, there would have been no need to build JTA or Argyle Forest Boulevard.

[JeffreyS]

Trying to separate out every angle as independent is just so short sited. Planning is a comprehensive task and I have hard time believing people don't get that.

[thelakelander]

Unfortunately, that's one of the main reasons things that need to be coordinated rarely get done in this city.

Looks like everyone is right, the streets "official" right-of-way has obviously been violated.  Still like Myrtle best... Riverside SKYWAY, Park BRT, Myrtle Streetcar... Yeah, so it's 30 years away from completion, but isn't that what we call VISION and PLANNING?

62' right-of-way - about 57' usable

51' right-of-way - wide open

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, from those aerials, it appears that none of those buildings encroach on the public ROW in either image.  The building heights in the aerials appear to be at an angle.  The taller the building is, the more it appears that its over the ROW line.  However, if you look at wear the building meets the sidewalk, it appears the ROW line and edge of sidewalk are the same.

[tufsu1]

of course all this focus on Park Street is unnecessary....

The general proposed streetcar route according to the 2035 LRTP is Park Street from the Prime Osborn across the viaduct....then it turns through the Brooklyn Park area and then down Riverside Avenue to Margaret Street....this was done to take advantage of the additional ROW on the six-lane Riverside Ave. set aside for skyway extension, which we won't see for at least 10 years (if ever)

[Dashing Dan]

of course all this focus on Park Street is unnecessary....

The general proposed streetcar route according to the 2035 LRTP is Park Street from the Prime Osborn across the viaduct....then it turns through the Brooklyn Park area and then down Riverside Avenue to Margaret Street....this was done to take advantage of the additional ROW on the six-lane Riverside Ave. set aside for skyway extension, which we won't see for at least 10 years (if ever)

Whatever the width, a plan for streetscape improvements to Park Street has already been developed.  These improvements don't have to wait in line behind a skyway extension or a streetcar line. 

[thelakelander]

True.  However, they should be modified to fit whatever the long term transit plan is before one spec of dirt is turned (assuming the plan means altering what exists between the curbs today).  Not doing so, would be fiscally irresponsible.

Example: Elizabeth Avenue in Charlotte, NC

Although all we ever focus on about Charlotte's mass transit plans is their new LRT line, they are also aggressively working on a streetcar plan as well.



Like what has been suggested repeatedly on MJ, they plan to implement the streetcar incrementally as the funds become available to expand.  The image above includes all of their long term LRT (blue, purple, silver) and streetcar lines (green).  The image below highlights their streetcar starter (red), which will connect Uptown to a community college and medical center campus south of it.





A few years back, the funds became available to do a streetscape project on Elizabeth Avenue.   Since Elizabeth Avenue is one of the streets that they wanted their future streetcar to run down, they actually laid the streetcar tracks in as a part of that project.  Thus, when they start building their streetcar (they just won a $25 million urban circulator grant from the Feds this past summer), they won't have to rip up this section of street and redo it.


Elizabeth Avenue

[Dashing Dan]

True.  However, they should be modified to fit whatever the long term transit plan is before one spec of dirt is turned (assuming the plan means altering what exists between the curbs today).  Not doing so, would be fiscally irresponsible.

from tufsu
The general proposed streetcar route according to the 2035 LRTP is Park Street from the Prime Osborn across the viaduct....then it turns through the Brooklyn Park area and then down Riverside Avenue to Margaret Street....this was done to take advantage of the additional ROW on the six-lane Riverside Ave. set aside for skyway extension, which we won't see for at least 10 years (if ever)

Based on input from tufsu, lakelander's concerns should not be any problem on this part of Park Street.