Can a Streetcar cost less than a Faux Trolley?

[Ocklawaha]

Your whole premise is that the current bus/fake-trolley system doesn't move the same people today from downtown to Riverside and back that a projected streetcar system would be projected to move. This just doesn't make sense. Where are the new riders coming from? The only riders I know travel the DT to Riverside stretch on the existing Riverside trolley. Do you think more riders will all of a sudden appear if this route is converted to a streetcar? I would say maybe, but only if the DT area was renovated with more commercial and residential areas. And where are the plans on those? Mostly dropped altogether or stuck on hold.

Your missing a couple of historical facts.

streetcars attract more riders then buses (of any type) for reasons not exactly understood, but well documented.

From 1947-1987, From a reciprocal point of view, 2.5 percent of the rail service remained, carrying 1.3 percent of the passengers, a loss of 48 percent over 30 years. Bus service, which inherited most of the rail ridership, lost 54 percent of its 1945 riders, despite the rail riders added to bus over that period. Considering that new buses on improved highways often replaced worn-out streetcars on bad track, the overall result is disconcerting and may help to focus on the transit's loss of market share.

After rail service was eliminated in Oklahoma City and its environs, transit use fell 97 percent on a per capita basis. In the western Milwaukee suburbs, when new buses replaced the old rapid transit rail line in 1951, ridership dropped 54 percent over a 2-yr span. Bus running time was 10 minutes longer than rail at that time, suggesting a loss of 21-22 percent of the riders. The balance of the loss, however, must be attributed to the mode. At the Waukesha rapid transit station, when buses were loading at the rail platform ahead of the rail car or train, only 26 percent of the passengers chose the bus, despite the 20 percent lower fare. It is probable that the lower fare offset the longer time, leaving the low modal share to passenger preference. Should you want more I can supply you with a list of cities that experienced a similar phenomenon.

I can personally tell you that the stinky non-trolley trolleys pick up passengers in the Fidelity/LPS area on Riverside to the 5 points area every day around lunch time and that route generally runs an near-full capacity. If there was a streetcar there instead with double the capacity, you WILL NOT SEE ANY DIFFERENCE in ridership. People in that area don't say "no, I don't think I'll go out to lunch today because I don't like riding in stinky camouflage buses". And when XX Millions of dollars later a streetcar is built, those same potential customers aren't going to say, "Yes, lets go down to Riverside or Avondale today because we can rid nice shiny expensive new heritage streetcars". Its not going to happen!

Again, your flying in the face of documented experience and mountains of evidence. When I first proposed the streetcar system in Jacksonville, essentially the same route planed today, a regional marketing agency involved in the project did a study and estimated 500,000 unique passengers a year would visit Jacksonville JUST TO RIDE THE STREETCARS. How many visitors do you think we have gotten from our fake PCT trucks buses? I can tell you somewhere in the neighborhood of zero. How do you explain the difference in the OLD PUEBLO TROLLEY and the PCT in Tucson? The PCT operated all day, it operated on a identical route but continued on into the heart of the city (the trolley stopped way short), and had a fare that was not even 50% of the trolley fare...result? The trolley carried several times the number of passengers even though it only operated on weekends, with limited trips, and all volunteer labor. How many volunteers do you suppose JTA gets to run those PCT's? How about maintain them? Anybody here volunteer to maintain the roads on the PCT routes? McKinney Avenue Streetcar in Dallas operates a full-typical transit schedule, and does it with ONE PAID EMPLOYEE!

EXPERIENCE:
"Yes, lets go down to Riverside or Avondale today because we can rid nice shiny expensive new heritage streetcars".  That is precisely what we will get, the choice rider who would NEVER ride the PCT BUS or any other bus. The people that for whatever reason feel the bus is a low status transit mode, rolling welfare van, stinky, bumpy, whatever. A heritage streetcar is not a replica anything...it IS a real working authentic experience...enough of one that some 90 streetcar museums in this country alone thrive on. 5 million railfan's around the world are literally counting the days when they can add another mile of "rare trackage" to their collected ridership experiences. I was at the IBLS 1980 International meet of (LIVE STEAM LOCOMOTIVE BUILDERS AND COLLECTORS) in Los Angeles, a club from Japan chartered a 747 to bring them and their equipment just for fun. Thousands attended, just as they attend airshows, or tall ship festivals. As a preferred mode of travel, having a heritage streetcar system is like installing a permanent tall ship fest or Blue Angel show every day of the year. http://www.touristrailways.com/namerica/index.html

"no, I don't think I'll go out to lunch today because I don't like riding in stinky camouflage buses." You might not get this statement, what you get TODAY is a statement from the many who won't go out to lunch today because they NEVER RIDE IN A STINKY CAMOUFLAGE BUS...or any other bus.  

Somebody mentioned the Dames point bridge as an example of "If you build it, they will come!". This analogy isn't even close. A new St Johns river crossing was desperately needed, and once hooked up to the east loop around the city all of a sudden all that traffic east of the St Johns could head north to the shipyards, airport, Savannah, etc instead of having to drive through downtown. Same with the Buckman bridge. Sure those projects spurred growth! They were major new interstates with HUGE traffic counts almost instantly appearing after opening.

Our DT streetcar runs a few miles from Newnam/Bay, to the convention center, down industrialized Park Ave, over through Riverside and up to King. Most of that replaces an existing trolley route. Just what part of that route do you expect to wildly grow? Think developers will be scrambling to knock down Auto Parts places on Park to put up new Condos? There will be little new growth in the Riverside area, that's mostly a historic district and should be left alone.

So you believe LaVilla and Brooklyn are built out? Really? Frankly I don't completely agree with using Park Street, since the Skyway will someday be over on Riverside (as soon as JTA see's a sign of life in redevelopment and apparently they haven't noticed 200 Riverside). IF THIS HAPPENS, then I would suggest a historical alignment from BAY-MYRTLE (THRU THE SUBWAY) FOREST-RIVERSIDE. I think the historical redevelopment along Jacksonville Terminal/La Villa and West Brooklyn which has a cluster of very old buildings would rock that whole area to life. Beyond that, there is enormous potential for vertical development around 5-Points and Park & King. Phase 2 of the streetcar would likely go toward the stadium via Newnan and East Beaver... The reason? From the Union Street Warehouse all the way to GATEWAY MALL, the city owns the railroad right of way. This is a ready made speedway for exclusive line, higher speeds, and tremendous development potential. Alternately the north line could continue on to AP Randolph and run north to the end, jogging west to Palmetto and the city owned railroad line. Randolph is both a historic area as well as a struggling neighborhood with limitless potential.

So, what are we spending this money for again? I expect you will blow me off again as a pest, but I see this project ending up like the skyway. Lots of money down the shitter with no measurable results. If you want to invest money in rail, let's get a commuter rail to SA and GCS rolling.

You sound as though you really don't want answers, that perhaps your mind is already made up. If the streetcar attracts more passengers then you know it won't attract development? And you know that how? It sure isn't from working inside the industry and reading several thousand reports almost all of which point to streetcar being one of the hottest development tools of the new century.  As Lake and Stephen have pointed out, streetcars are place makers and ridership accelerators, while buses at best serve a preexisting base.

"For each dollar invested, the city would reap approximately $14 in new economic activity." see: http://www.cincystreetcar.com/economicdevelopment.html

“I see local residents ride the streetcar to go to lunch, kids use it like it’s an amusement ride, and tourists are on it,” Rett Tucker says. “There’s a combination of uses, all of which are positive.” see: http://www.developeronline.com/streetcars-spur-development-in-urban-cores/

Long Beach City Councilmember Suja Lowenthal views her city’s pursuit of a streetcar as a way to appeal to new transit riders who are attracted to fixed rail: “streetcars serve a different customer than buses, attracting more choice riders and tourists/visitors who are willing to travel on a rail system in an unfamiliar city.” see:  http://www.cp-dr.com/node/2816

The Impact

   * The streetcar, which also services areas surrounding downtown and connects people to the regional light rail and bus systems, has spurred approximately 100 projects worth $2.3 billion in development along the service line.
   * The projects included over 7,000 housing units and 4.6 million square feet of office and retail space. Because this new development is occurring where there is easy streetcar access, developers can allocate space and resources to more and better quality development instead of additional parking.
   * Ridership is three times greater than projected: 2009 levels were up to 12,000 riders per day, contributing to the decline of vehicle use in Portland, while such use has increased in American cities overall.
see: http://www.iscvt.org/what_we_do/climate/case_studies/portland.php

Anyway, the point is, what I learned overall was that streetcars are a very powerful economic development tool, can help to transform cities, and are much more broadly popular than many other forms of mass transit in the U.S. They improve livability of a city.  see:  http://www.downtownslc.org/media-coverage/street-car-is-focus-of-mayor-address-17


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Ock, that's not my quote.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, that's not my quote.

MY BAD MAN! The whole piece was FUBAR when I posted it... must be another classic case of me not being half as think as you high I am!  Hey at least military grade poison is good for something!

I fixed it. Thanks.

OCKLAWAHA

[Dashing Dan]

if it is 4-8' lanes with 2-9' sidewalks, the total ROW is 50'...same is true with 10' lanes and 5' sidewalks

I worked on a TOD study for that area about 4 years ago.  I think that the cross section for that part of Park Street is even less than 50' 

As I recall, our recommendation was for two travel lanes, a parking lane on the inbound side, and a bulb at Park and Stonewall for a transit shelter.  Chris Flagg did a sketch for it.

[buckethead]

Save your money folks! No more studies needed.

I want to get on a streetcar.

There is no why... there only is.

[thelakelander]

According to google earth and the sanborn maps in my office, the Park Street ROW is 60'.  The sidewalks just happen to be wider.

[Dashing Dan]

According to google earth and the sanborn maps in my office, the Park Street ROW is 60'.  The sidewalks just happen to be wider.

uh-uh.  If the sidewalks had been that wide we wouldn't have needed that bulb.

[tufsu1]

I checked it this morning as well...Lake is correct...the ROW is 60'....and the lanes are around 9 feet.

[PeeJayEss]

Save your money folks! No more studies needed.

I want to get on a streetcar.

There is no why... there only is.

+1, but I'll give a why. I work near Park and King and live in Riverside so I am in the target demo. I have no ridden the "trolley," but I would be all over a streetcar. In fact, if there were a streetcar from DT to Riverside, I would probably move to DT. I live in Riverside now and love it, but I want to live downtown (even if its empty - i am willing to sacrifice if my being there will help convince a company to stay or move in). Then I'd ride the streetcar everyday.

Does the trolley run to RAM? It should if it doesn't, but I'd rather it be a streetcar. It absolutely makes a difference.

[Dashing Dan]

I checked it this morning as well...Lake is correct...the ROW is 60'....and the lanes are around 9 feet.

I stepped off the inbound sidewalk on my way downtown just now.  It's less than 10' wide, probably closer to 9'

With 32' between the curbs, the usable right of way is closer to 50' than 60' no matter what the official right of way is. 

On my own street the official right of way is 100' but from the way the right of way is laid out, you'd have a very tough time taking that land out of people's yards.

[Dashing Dan]

The basic problem is that you barely have enough space between the curbs for even three lanes.

[Dashing Dan]

Does the trolley run to RAM? It should if it doesn't, but I'd rather it be a streetcar. It absolutely makes a difference.

It runs past RAM on Saturdays, but the time between the (faux) trolleys is very long - over an hour.

[thelakelander]

The basic problem is that you barely have enough space between the curbs for even three lanes.

Only if you want 12' wide lanes, which should be discouraged on a street like Park.  All a streetcar would need is a single lane and an occassional passing siding.  So it appears that there is proper room between the existing curbing if there was a desire to not run such a service in mixed traffic.

[buckethead]

Does the trolley run to RAM? It should if it doesn't, but I'd rather it be a streetcar. It absolutely makes a difference.

It runs past RAM on Saturdays, but the time between the (faux) trolleys is very long - over an hour.

Jacksonville has a trolley?!!???!!

[Dashing Dan]

Jacksonville has a trolley?!!???!!

This thread has definitely gone on for too long!