Rise of the Tea Party

[Garden guy]

OK, if you want to play games, go ahead.  Everyone else here can read a thread and I'm sure are tired of me and you bickering again.  Maybe you have demurred long enough that some have forgotten your incorrect claims and your insults.  Have a good day.

I find it hilarious when i hear t partiers demanding that they know all that is right and good...it's hilarious because most are still reeling that we have a non white  man in the whitehouse and they would be really upset that the rest of the world might find out that they are just scared and have been lied to by thier leaders.....just a bunch of fear mongerers that are white not overly educated and really never understood that the social security system was'nt a savings account and we've all been dupted by the right.

[Shwaz]

OK, if you want to play games, go ahead.  Everyone else here can read a thread and I'm sure are tired of me and you bickering again.  Maybe you have demurred long enough that some have forgotten your incorrect claims and your insults.  Have a good day.

I find it hilarious when i hear t partiers demanding that they know all that is right and good...it's hilarious because most are still reeling that we have a non white  man in the whitehouse and they would be really upset that the rest of the world might find out that they are just scared and have been lied to by thier leaders.....just a bunch of fear mongerers that are white not overly educated and really never understood that the social security system was'nt a savings account and we've all been dupted by the right.

Nothing worse than being dupted by mongerers.

[NotNow]

I am meeting with the accountants this week for filing our 2010 corp taxes(Yes we had to file an extension from last week). I have this question on the agenda. I believe that if the money is similar (or less obviously) than our current premiums we will make out well because some of my competition have not been providing health care. I will be happy to spill the beans on what I find out. I was convinced at one time this would save me a ton but now so few of my employees use the plan it may well go the other way.

Thanks for an honest appraisal.  I would rather hear the truth from a small businessman than try to trust the web or media types.   Let me know what you think as 2014 rolls around.

[mikeytm]

I chose the Patraeus ad because it was a valid comparison with the Tea Party - both examples are efforts to change policy through organizations which have been funded by rich guys.  Anything else you want to make out of it is in your own mind.  I'm not going down that road.

Yes, George Soros was active in moveon.org prior to the ad - which came out in the Fall of 2007.

According to an article in the Washington Post dated March 10, 2004:
"The Democratic 527 organizations have drawn support from some wealthy liberals determined to defeat Bush. They include financier George Soros who gave $1.46 million to MoveOn.org Voter Fund (in the form of matching funds to recruit additional small donors); Peter B. Lewis, chief executive of the Progressive Corp., who gave $500,000 to MoveOn.org Voter Fund; and Linda Pritzker, of the Hyatt hotel family, and her Sustainable World Corp., who gave $4 million to the joint fundraising committee."[17]


The Koch Brothers aren't being criticized because they're conservative.  They're being criticized because it's been speculated they want to buy Wisconsin public power plants for their energy interests.  That hasn't happened, and there's no evidence it will, but to the Left, that's not the point.   They'd like to show the Koch Brothers as heartless rich guys who happen to be the puppeteers behind the evil Scott Walker.  "Scott Walker wants to dirty our air and rivers, and starve teachers!"  Total BS.

You ask if it matters what political opinions one has.  But when those opinion are expressed, you seem to be more tolerant of defending the Left than the Right.  You note that EVERYONE should criticize the Swift Boat
vets.  I wonder, do you think EVERYONE should also criticize Moveon.org for calling the Commander of Forces in Iraq a traitor?  Do the same rules apply?

Again, there's no evidence that the Koch Brothers are profiting from what's happened in Wisconsin.  I'd argue that their reputation has taken a hit - unfairly, I might add.  

I never said that the protestors in Wisconsin were being paid to show up.  I stated that unions have done it before.

[buckethead]

The Koch's have been bidding very low on the State owned energy companies of Wisconsin for a while, Mikey.

If you wanted to draw out the equivelancy, it would be like Soros openly controlling US monetary policy as a member of the Fed.  He makes his money from fluctuations in Currency and trading back and forth in them.

If he were to suddenly start spending 100 million dollars on ads, blogs, and whisper campaigns claiming that the US currency is about to go back onto the gold standard, right after having purchased a billion dollars of treasury notes and greenbacks, then there would be a similarity.

The connection would then be clear.  Just as it is with the Koch brothers creating false propaganda for the purposes of enriching themselves, and dressing it up as 'constitutionalism' or 'patriotism'.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/25/opinion/25krugman.html?ref=paulkrugman

What’s happening in Wisconsin is, instead, a power grab â€" an attempt to exploit the fiscal crisis to destroy the last major counterweight to the political power of corporations and the wealthy. And the power grab goes beyond union-busting. The bill in question is 144 pages long, and there are some extraordinary things hidden deep inside.

For example, the bill includes language that would allow officials appointed by the governor to make sweeping cuts in health coverage for low-income families without having to go through the normal legislative process.

And then there’s this: “Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state-owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).”

What’s that about? The state of Wisconsin owns a number of plants supplying heating, cooling, and electricity to state-run facilities (like the University of Wisconsin). The language in the budget bill would, in effect, let the governor privatize any or all of these facilities at whim. Not only that, he could sell them, without taking bids, to anyone he chooses. And note that any such sale would, by definition, be “considered to be in the public interest.”

When coupled with this little bit of info, (opinion piece though it may be... the text of the bill quoted in the essay is correct. I checked myself) Stephen's claim seems a bit more believable, and therefore urgent.

Let's Imagine Obama given these exact same powers while Soros is bidding low on public utilities.

I took the wrong side of this issue initially. I do believe the unions in this case need to make concessions, but to outlaw public employee unions was wrong, disingenuous, and no more than cover for the real looting that is being attempted.

[finehoe]

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/king-davids-war-20110202

[mikew]

The Kochs have been bidding on the power plants for a long time?  Where's the evidence of that? And what is the lie they are telling?   

As for making a profit at the public's expense, you might want to check George Soros's record on that.  He alone profited from a panic that cost the British taxpayers billions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

Um, the surge in Iraq - putting more boots on the ground - was a critical factor in stabilizing Iraq.  Check the number of military deaths before and after the surge, and come back and tell me it wasn't a success.   Furthermore, the ad appeared BEFORE Patraeus even testified before Congress.  Pretty classy, huh?

[mikew]

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/king-davids-war-20110202

Here's a more accurate source on the success of the surge.   This gives a month by month casualty count of deaths in Iraq since the invasion began in 2003.

Bush announced the surge in late 2006.   The maximum number of boots on the ground didn't occur until June of that year. 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_casualties.htm

[mikew]

You want to talk about urgent, Buckethead?  States like California, New York and Illinois have millions of dollars in unfunded pensions.   They're on the brink of defualt. How are they going to pay for it?   They could raise taxes - but those states already have high taxes - and it's not conducive for business and generating new revenue.

You're misinformed when you state that Scott Walker wants to do away with public unions.  He doesn't even want to do away with collective bargaining on pay raises.  It's the benefits that are driving up  the costs (see CA, IL and NY).   When the politicians and the unions sit down to negotiate, there's no incentive to keep the costs down.  Quite the opposite.   When a politician agrees to generous benefits, that politician has union support for the next election.

There's another little feature to that bill that unions don't want to talk about.   The new bill would require unions, not the state to collect union dues.   This means that non-union members wouldn't have to pay union dues.  Right now they do.   Does that seem fair to you?

[mikew]

We can agree on that Steven.  I'm no fan of the Kochs either.  I would agree that if this law does allow them to pursue the power plants, heads should roll.   I'm sorry  that item was a part of that bill.

[Buckethead!]

You want to talk about urgent, Buckethead?   1) States like California, New York and Illinois have millions of dollars in unfunded pensions.   They're on the brink of defualt. How are they going to pay for it?   They could raise taxes - but those states already have high taxes - and it's not conducive for business and generating new revenue.

2) You're misinformed when you state that Scott Walker wants to do away with public unions.  He doesn't even want to do away with collective bargaining on pay raises.  It's the benefits that are driving up  the costs (see CA, IL and NY).   When the politicians and the unions sit down to negotiate, there's no incentive to keep the costs down.  Quite the opposite.   When a politician agrees to generous benefits, that politician has union support for the next election.

There's another little feature to that bill that unions don't want to talk about.   The new bill would require unions, not the state to collect union dues.   This means that non-union members wouldn't have to pay union dues.  Right now they do.   Does that seem fair to you?

1)Many states are on the brink. Oddly many are high tax states. Pensions are a problem, but simply making a blanket statement won't fit the bill. There is a problem, and it's name is legion.

Each state has it's own recipe for debt and insolvency. It's just one of those delicious recipes you create yourself, with a mixed bag of ingredients.

2) Not misinformed, but I did misspeak. He ended collective bargaining (I incorrectly stated he wanted to "outlaw public employee unions".) for many public employee union members. Oddly enough, not the police unions.

I like the proposal for the unions collecting their own dues.

I also dislike that these unions perennially support the Democrat ticket, regardless of the leanings of individual members. A conservative ought not be forced to support a liberal against his/her will.

That is likely a faily uncommon occurrence since birds of a feather...

You seem pretty bright. Have a looksee at the bill and scrutinize it as if the opposite party you support had created it.

[JeffreyS]

I criticize the Koch  brothers because they are the biggest polluters of the St. Johns river that I love.

[mtraininjax]

Its a vicious circle, and no one seems to have informed a single Californian tax cutter..

All the more reason for the "Terminator" to have bailed on his job as governor. He realized that in a state he loves very much, his republican views of cutting taxes could do little for the state. They have some real issues for sure, and not many ways to resolve other than increasing taxes. Great place to visit, but their taxes and cost of living are rediculous to that of us here in Florida.

[Dog Walker]

And yet we elected a governor on the basis that we are a high tax state.  So high tax that he is cutting taxes and de-funding much of our state government.  Just ignorant!

[BridgeTroll]

http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local/article_3c23590c-572a-11e0-afc0-001cc4c002e0.html

Caterpillar CEO's letter talks of leaving Illinois
By Kurt Erickson SPRINGFIELD --

The chairman and CEO of Peoria-based Caterpillar Inc. is raising the specter of moving the heavy equipment maker out of Illinois.

In a letter sent March 21 to Gov. Pat Quinn, Caterpillar chief executive officer Doug Oberhelman said officials in at least four other states have approached the company about relocating since Illinois raised its income tax in January.

"I want to stay here. But as the leader of this business, I have to do what's right for Caterpillar when making decisions about where to invest," Oberhelman wrote in the letter obtained Friday by the Lee Enterprises Springfield bureau. "The direction that this state is headed in is not favorable to business and I'd like to work with you to change that."

Oberhelman said he's being actively courted to move.

"I have been called, 'cornered' in meetings and 'wined and dined' -- the heat is on," Oberhelman wrote. "Before, I never really considered living anywhere else and certainly never considered the possibility of Caterpillar relocating. But I have to admit, the policymakers in Springfield seem to make it harder by the day."

Cat spokesman Jim Dugan said the letter was designed to show Quinn that Oberhelman wants to be involved in finding solutions that benefit the company, which employs 23,000 people in Illinois.

"I view it as an olive branch to offer our help," Dugan said.

Quinn plans on discussing the letter with Oberhelman April 5 when the two meet at a conference in Peoria. The governor also plans on touring Caterpillar facilities at that time, spokeswoman Brie Callahan said Friday.

"The governor welcomes frank and open exchanges between the business community and government, and we are always open to new ideas that can help our businesses grow, innovate and create jobs," Callahan said.

Oberhelman didn't single out any specific problem with the state's policies in his one-page letter, but Dugan said the recent income tax increase -- signed into law by Quinn in January -- played a significant role in triggering the note.

The tax hike has led to attempts by other states, including Wisconsin, Indiana and New Jersey, to try and poach companies that don't want to stay in the Land of Lincoln.

Oberhelman also sent along correspondence Cat has received from other states.

"I stand ready to help convince you to relocate or expand in the fiscally conservative, low-tax Lone Star State," wrote Texas Gov. Rick Perry in a Jan. 24 letter.

"I encourage you to consider South Dakota as a place for your business to grow and prosper," noted J. Pat Costello, secretary of the South Dakota governor's economic development office.

Nebraska Gov. Dave Heineman wrote in February to say, "In Nebraska, we balance our budget by controlling spending, not by raising taxes."

Republican leaders, who unsuccessfully fought Quinn on the tax hike, say the letter confirms why they were opposed to the increase.

"These are the kinds of letters we fear," said Patty Schuh, spokeswoman for Senate Minority Leader Christine Radogno, R-Lemont. "Even more worrisome are the hundreds of businesses being wooed that we don't know about."

Schuh said the tax hike and the state's worker compensation costs on businesses "make Illinois a hostile environment, prime for the picking."