LaHood in talks with Charlotte over FL HSR funds

[vicupstate]

In a transportation trifecta, state and federal officials pledged Friday to accelerate the widening of Interstate 485, pay for a new airport control tower and help extend Charlotte's light-rail line to UNC Charlotte.

Gov. Bev Perdue joined U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, Sen. Kay Hagan and other officials at the Charlotte Chamber for a roundtable discussion with business leaders.

Perdue made official what a state senator announced last month: that the widening of I-485 between Rea Road and Interstate 77 will begin in 2012, two years ahead of schedule.

"It's great news for this community ... but it's also great news for North Carolina," Perdue said.

LaHood offered the possibility of more good news.

He said President Barack Obama has budgeted $550 billion for transportation issues, a pot that includes billions for high-speed rail and $400 million for light-rail projects such as Charlotte's.

A former Republican congressman, LaHood said he's optimistic the budget can largely survive the new GOP-controlled House.

"We're going to work with Congress," he said. "There's nothing partisan about transportation. There are no 'Republican' or 'Democrat' bridges or roads. And I believe transportation will be bi-partisan this year."

LaHood called the transportation measure "a jobs bill."

"The president is saying if we want to put people to work," he said, "the way to do that is make these investments."

LaHood was the only Republican on a panel that included Democratic U.S. Reps. Mel Watt of Charlotte and Larry Kissell of Montgomery County.

In a hearing earlier this week, senators questioned LaHood about how the transportation budget's proposals would be paid for. A spokeswoman for Charlotte Republican Rep. Sue Myrick said a GOP-led House committee is holding hearings on the bill across the country.

LaHood promised Jerry Orr, aviation director at Charlotte-Douglas International Airport, to help build a new control tower. And he offered the prospect that Charlotte might get some of the budget's $400 million to extend light rail to the university area.

UNC Charlotte Chancellor Phil Dubois told the secretary the extension would connect "two of the biggest economic drivers" in the area, uptown and the university.

Federal Transit Administrator Peter Rogoff applauded the project. "The growth that this region is going to experience is going to be eye-popping," he said. "What will really make or break Charlotte is how will they plan for it? Things like the (Lynx) Blue Line extension is how we plan for it."

LaHood, Rogoff and the members of Congress took a ride on the Blue Line from uptown to South End, passing developments that came about as a result of the light rail.

"Everywhere I go I say it," LaHood said at the chamber. "If you build it they will come. Any of these corridors become an economic engine."

The federal government has promised North Carolina $500 million for high-speed rail, including a line between Charlotte and Greensboro. LaHood declined to say whether North Carolina might benefit from the $2.4 billion for high-speed rail the state of Florida rejected Friday. LaHood said he'll announce next week what the department would do with the money. But he lauded North Carolina's commitment to rail.

"North Carolina's got it together," he said. "North Carolina is going to be in the high-speed rail business because of the tenacious leadership of your governor."

FYI, Perdue is up for re-election next year.  AS Governor, she will host the DNC Convention that will be held next year in Charlotte.

[JeffreyS]

this will not be the first real money we've given to charlotte .

[avonjax]

We deserve what we get. Especially in NE Florida who put crook Scott in office. This WILL come back to bite Florida for years to come. As long as Scott and people like him are in office we will be falling way behind, most notably in NE Florida. And if we get the same kind of regressive government in this city, we will continue to fall way behind the rest of Florida. WE ARE WAY FAR BEHIND THE OTHER MAJOR CITIES IN FLORIDA. The political atmosphere in Florida is very poisonous. It is simply about power, NOT what's good for the people. I wish I had the means to move someplace else. 

[thelakelander]

The money will most likely be split up and sent to a number of other states pursuing HSR.  Most will go to California, New York and the Midwest but North Carolina should get some cash for their project as well.

[Jdog]

It's not just that Jacksonville is falling behind relative to other cities it feels like Jacksonville is actually going backwards in absolute terms. 

[Ocklawaha]

The money will most likely be split up and sent to a number of other states pursuing HSR.  Most will go to California, New York and the Midwest but North Carolina should get some cash for their project as well.

Any cash going to NC HSR is cash that is going to SEHSR which equals cash that is going to J A C K S O N V I L L E via high speed train.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I'd rather it go to a project that can be quickly implemented.  After all, that was the whole point of the federal stimulus in the first place.  If I had my choice, I'd send the cash to the Midwest.  That region and its major cities could use the economic boost and their plan appears to be solid, quick to implement and the most affordable.  The current timeline for SEHSR is the hope to link DC with Charlotte by 2022.  



http://www.sehsr.org/history.html

The rest of the SEHSR plan is so conceptual in the making that I'm skeptical that it will ever happen, as long as our national and state political structure remains the same.  Do you guys really think South Carolina and Georgia are going to embrace a multi-billion dollar statewide rail project within their borders anytime soon?

[Dashing Dan]

A high speed rail line up the East Coast  - or into the Midwest - would contribute to the development of a national high speed rail system, and would therefore be a win for planning over short sighted opportunism. 

Either option would be more cost effective than the option that Scott rejected, and would also benefit Jacksonville.

[thelakelander]

The Florida plan was actually pretty cheap ($32 million per mile) and would have probably reached Jax before SEHSR makes it to Atlanta.  By comparison, Charlotte's recently completed LRT line cost $48 million per mile and our own Outer Beltway's estimates put it at $40 million per mile.  Again, not to piss in everyone's punch bowl (just providing a little more reality to the discussion), the SEHSR is so conceptual that most of it hasn't even been studied yet, so no one has a clue of how much it will cost or how long it will take to get that funding or to construct it.  The first phase (Charlotte/DC) is still environmental study phase and could cost as much as $7.5 billion.
http://www.sehsr.org/faq.html

[Ocklawaha]

Maybe so but SEHSR and the Midwest HSR projects are incremental, and as Charlotte has already proved can start to benefit the region long before true HSR ever reaches the city.

We need to get off the idea that we are an island, and think national, fast, frequent trains, HrSR makes a hell of a lot more sense from KC to St. Louis to Chi Town, from Houston to Dallas to OKC, or ABQ-ELP, then a wasted "inexpensive" flying 200 mph capable train, running at 90 mph down the middle of I-4 and stopping every 10 miles.

Fact is CSX already applied for a huge grant to double and triple track the entire route from JAX to DC that "has nothing to do with HSR..."  On the same corridor that the feds have designated as SEHSR, also the Atlanta-Jax study is ongoing right now. SEHSR is much, much bigger, longer term, more sustainable, logical and a better fit for the technology. Reality? i can go down to the county health clinic and get birth control pills FREE, but you won't see either of us hanging out down there. Florida has long been addicted to the quick fix, and it has gotten us into a lot of jams over the years. Railroads were not/are not overnight projects as Florida seems to believe, just as the federal interstate program has taken 50 years to realize, a true HSR network will likewise take time. Putting rocket engines on what is ostensibly a regional or commuter train route makes no sense.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Ock...Florida's HSR was also incremental and would have connected to miam, jax, and the rest of the southeast in phases.

From what I understand, your main problem with the tampa to orlando route was that it woud use i-4.....since the other routes aren't as far along, we don't know what exact route they will take or where the stops will be.

Yet you support those routes and not ours......please explain.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock...Florida's hsr was also incremental and would have connected to miam, jax, and the rest of the southeast in phases.

From what I understand, your main problem with the tampa to orlando route was that it woud use i-4.....since the other routes aren't as faralong, we don't know what exact route they will take or where the stops will be.

Yet you support those routes and not ours......please explain.

My problems with Florida are myriad, here's 10 of them.

1. You are correct in stating that I think I-4 is at least 4-9 miles north of the target market if we are serving Floridians. In that light, a CSX alignment or a hybrid would have been light years superior.

2. If we are going to say it wasn't really for Floridians, then I DEFINITELY have another huge problem with it.

3. Even if we had to stay with I-4 (and the "CSX won't play argument is bogus) then for Gods sake get it into Orlando and it's metro downtown's, hell running from Apopka to Tampa would be better then the most inconvenient airport in the state.

4. Missing Tampa Union Station on any basis with a glorified Skyway station is unforgivable after the State and locals invested millions to bring it up to speed for... HIGH SPEED RAIL. Not to mention Commuter Rail, Amtrak, Light Rail, Streetcar, BRT (which will pass right by it)...

5. The Tampa to Miami via Orlando Airport route, no matter how they cut it FAILS to win the cross state race, even at 120-220 mph it can be beat by a stock automobile on a freeway, or a conventional train on an UPGRADED old SEABOARD Cross-Florida-Shortline.  Cocoa involves a 110% turn south, Directly south involves about 140 miles of NOTHING, and the westerly route along the CSX while reaching a decent population is circuitous to Miami, in fact all of the above HSR routes are circuitous.

6. The Miami-Jacksonville FEC RY Amtrak route is being funded (or was) as a high speed rail project under the 90-150 mph ACELLERAIL FRA CRITERIA.

7. There is NOTHING incremental in attempting to go from A to Z without B through Y, and that is exactly what Florida HSR attempts to do. In a state that has seen continous cuts to it's meager Amtrak services, and shown an unwillingness if not inability to fund even remedial regional Amtrak and commuter train operations, talking about 200 mile per hour "flying trains" taking XXX people here or there or relieving XXX cars from any highway is pure unrealistic fantasy. As Lakelander would say, REALITY CHECK TIME.  If and when the FEC route has 5-10 trains per direction-per day, and the "A" line of the CSX is likewise populated with Amtrak services, when the state shows it can actually get a train back to Sarasota and Venice, and Ft. Myers and Naples, and Tallahassee and Pensacola, as well as return passenger service to the "S" line between Jax and Tampa, or retain it between Tampa and Miami, and create and run commuter rail services, WE ARE SIMPLY NOT READY FOR "NEW HSR" to make a realistic attempt at success.

8. Why not bring it down to earth? Trains don't fly, and elevated track brings on a whole plethora of maintenance, noise, and visual problems. THUS MY RUNNING COMMENTS ABOUT "FLYING TRAINS."

Vertical alignments according to HSRA, the vertical alignment of the train has an effect.  ”Noise from elevated trains travels twice as far as noise from trains that are ‘at grade’ (at ground level).

The FRA provides a useful diagram that shows comparisons of the shielding corrections associated with various types of track geometries (alignments). NOTE that the Skyway is not on a true monorail track, rather it is a monorail in a tub, why? NOISE.
SOURCE: [insert image pg 56, http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/RRDev/final_nv.pdf]

...Another one bites the dust? The passenger canopies have been torn down at the completely rebuilt 1917 Intermodal Transportation Center in Ocala. Why not? Florida is going to build a "flying train"

9. Sacrificing any possibility of passenger rail service to every town in the hinterland of Florida along the "S" line, be it for Sunrail or for HSR is irresponsible. Again, the taxpayers spent a cool million or two to create the Ocala Intermodal Station, then kissing butt, Tallahassee under Jeb allowed Amtrak to bailout of all of North Central Florida.

10. If we must go with the current plan, what is wrong with accessing the DOWNTOWN'S of the metropolitan area's via the current railroad alignments EUROPEAN STYLE? It's so typical of Florida to over-plan and under-plan at the same moment isn't it? By missing both Tampa Union Station, Orlando and Winter Park Amtrak as well as CHURCH STREET STATION DOWNTOWN or Lynx Station, then by missing Miami Amtrak, this is a train without roots, and its about as close to zero connectivity as one could create. Looking over the applications and documentation I honestly can't figure out if we've lost our horse or found a lead rope!

FOR THOSE WHO ARE LOST - THIS FROM THE FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION - EXPLAINING MANY OF OUR POINTS:

Accelerail constitutes upgraded intercity rail passenger service on existing railroad rights-of-way, most of which belong to the freight railroads. The Accelerail options considered in this report have top speeds ranging from 90 to 150 mph.

The Accelerail 150 options generally assume a greater separation of passenger from freight service. Two fundamental means exist to accomplish Accelerail these usually occur in combination, based on projections of time savings, net revenue impacts, and life-cycle costs:

·  Improve the infrastructure (including, for example, track and structures) to allow for higher top speeds, remove site-specific speed restrictions (e.g., in urban areas, around curves, through switches), and offer higher line throughput capacity and enhanced reliability;

and/or

·  Improve the fleet of locomotives and cars (sometimes permanently or semipermanently attached in larger units called “trainsets”) to provide better acceleration, to achieve higher maximum speeds, and to alleviate the need to slow down for curves by providing additional banking within the vehicle (“tilt”). In addition to promising favorable operating results, efforts to upgrade existing service to Accelerail levels must adhere to evolving safety standards, the stringency of which generally increases with speed.

Certain system elements, such as train control and electrification, rely on a perfectly coordinated set of vehicle, right-of-way, and other improvements. In addition, even in the absence of line-haul trip-time savings, some reductions in total (door-to-door) travel times could conceivably occurâ€" for example, through station relocations, additions, and reconfigurations; through parking and other access betterments; through higher train frequencies; and through streamlined ticketing and other processes.

Making use of existing facilities, Accelerail ordinarily represents the least ambitious and least expensive HSGT technology and may provide relatively high benefits in comparison with the investment required. Nevertheless, Accelerail solutions require concerted attention to the needs and operations of the freight railroads, which own most of the rights-of-way and which already provide a transportation service that is of supreme importance to the Nation’s commerce. Accelerail’s success thus depends on its ability to secure the cooperation of the railroad companies.

New HSR represents advanced steel-wheel-on-rail passenger systems on almost completely new rights-of-way. Through a combination of electrification and other advanced components, expeditious alignments, and state-of-the-art rolling stock, New HSR can attain maximum practical operating speeds on the order of 200 mph. On the other hand, because it is compatible with existing railroads, New HSR can combine new lines in rural areas with existing approaches to urban terminals, and can offer Accelerail-type services beyond the confines of the New HSR lines per se.

SOURCE:  http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/RRDev/cfs0997ch3.pdf

OCKLAWAHA

[Dashing Dan]

All I'm saying is that:

1; If some or all of the $2.4 billion goes to support a rail project in another SE state, Jacksonville could end up better off than if that money had been spent on something that would have run down the middle of I-4; and

2; It's better to have a (good) plan than to throw money at something just because it can be done cheaply or quickly.

[tufsu1]

not to pick on just one thing on your list....but...

hell running from Apopka to Tampa would be better then the most inconvenient airport in the state.

are you really saying that Orlando's airport location is less convenient to their overall metro area than JIA?

[Ocklawaha]

not to pick on just one thing on your list....but...

hell running from Apopka to Tampa would be better then the most inconvenient airport in the state.

are you really saying that Orlando's airport location is less convenient to their overall metro area than JIA?

No, but I wouldn't run a railroad line (outside of light rail) into JIA either, and even then only after it becomes a hub for some carrier or two.

What I said was APOPKA which is on Orange Blossom Trail US-441, SR-436, Maitland Bl, SR-429, is more accessible to Orlando's Metro then OIA.

Now back to my reasons for not liking the plan? I did answer your question in some detail didn't I?

OCKLAWAHA