Poll: 67% of Floridians support state or federal funding for High Speed Rail

[FayeforCure]

The bidding process should take place regardless of what any of us think on this particular issue.  Don't take it personal, its not a knock on anyone.  With $2.4 billion in funding on the line, its more logical to vet with facts and statistical data instead of opinions.  Regardless of how this turns out, that's my position.

I guess they are afraid, VERY AFRAID, that many of these 8 consortiums can actually make it work!! Oh it is sooooooo inconvenient to be faced with facts rather than speculation.

Here is a partial list of private industry that were part of the 8 consortiums that were waiting for the invitation to competitively bid:

Cintra (Spain), Soares De Costa (Portugal), Ferrovial Agroman (Spain), Talgo, Inc (Spain), Bechtel (US), SNCF America (France), AMTRAK (US), Samsung (S Korea), Parsons (US), Hyundai Rotem (S Korea), Siemens (Germany) Veolia (France), Global Via USA (Spain), FCC (Spain), Skanska (Sweden), Central Japan Railway Company (Japan), Fluor Corp (US), Balfour Beatty Rail (United Kingdom), CSR SF (China), ACS/Dragados USA (Spain), GE Transportation (US), Odebrecht (Brazil), Alstom (France), Virgin Group (United Kingdom), Vinci Concessions (USA/France), OHL USA (Spain)

http://floridaindependent.com/22623/paula-dockery-private-sector-could-have-absorbed-high-speed-rail-risk.

You afraid too Ock?

Scott may be speeding toward his own political fall â€" his poll numbers are slipping â€" but at the moment he seems to have the momentum to bring down the Obama administration’s most “do-able” passenger rail project. So far, it’s unclear whether the White House wants to stand up and fight Scott or redirect the federal funds to places like California and New York where the governors are openly campaigning for the money.

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has given Scott until the end of Friday to accept or reject the federal rail funds. Doubtless we know what Scott will do. The Florida story, however, won’t be over until the local entities give up on their plan to take over the project and the state Supreme Court weighs in on the constitutional issues raised by the Altman-Joyner suit.

http://www.progressivefix.com/gov-scott-stages-a-trainwreck-in-florida

[Ocklawaha]

I guess they are afraid, VERY AFRAID, that many of these 8 consortiums can actually make it work!! Oh it is sooooooo inconvenient to be faced with facts rather than speculation.

You afraid too Ock?

Just the opposite Faye, I'm forecasting that they might indeed make it work and that success will come at a huge price to whoever is unfortunate enough to buy into our bogus numbers. But they'll do it and sacrifice themselves in order to get into a game they think will play out in our country. I've been around this industry for 40 years and if it happens that Florida HSR is a loss leader, it will shut down ANY chance of a similar project anywhere else in the USA.

Should it by some miracle succeed of it's own volition, then I'll be more then happy to eat my words and become a convert, but I'm not expecting such from Florida. California YES, Illinois and Missouri YES, North Carolina and Washington and Maine and Oregon, YES, but Florida? HELL NO! With most transportation projects over the years we always manage to come out the shit-faced idiots... We collect these badges here like our Anna Nicole Smith weeping Judge, or our infamous hanging chads, or the Outer Beltway.

If it ends up as I suspect, something worse then the Skyway on a massive scale, then too will I support it and try and find a way to effect changes that will make it work, but if there is a chance to save us from ourselves I'm all for waiting another 4 years to get it right.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

You'll be waiting for more than another 4 years.  Miss the Obama term and you could easily be waiting another 20 or more.  After all, its taken us almost 30 years to get to this point.  I still don't see what's wrong with allowing the professionals to look at this before giving up $2.4 billion in federal funding for nothing in return.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I keep reading, "Take the red pill." - Let's put out the RFP what harm can come from it. Or "Take the blue pill." - If this happens it will be a travesty.

Why hasn't anyone in this country already eaten both the pills and seen where the rabbit hole leads.  This is America - home of the capitalist.  If this was going to be such a goldmine, then why isn't it here already.  This system has been popular in Europe since the mid 60's early 70's?  China in the 90's?  For whatever reason it hasn't grabbed hold here.  Why?

Has anyone thought about the fact that the people pushing for it are the people that will be actually building the train-cars and selling us the technology that we apparently don't already have?  They are the one's with nothing to lose at all.

[thelakelander]

Non-RedNeck Westsider, what harm can come of simply putting out an RFP?  If its not feasible, it will die......just like the Outer Beltway situation.  When did we become so afraid to invest in 19th century technology?

Intercity rail is pretty popular in the Northeast.  They also utilize the Northeast corridor for more than one particular use or system.  We should try and plan to utilize our infrastructure in a similar manner.

As for the private sector building it years ago, its probably the same reason you don't see the private sector building highways.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

In my simple mind, if you put out an RFP, technically, you don't have anything to lose, but technically a company submitting a proposal doesn't either.  They can propose that this will work and that ridership will be that, but they can't physically put people on the train.  And if it succeeds, they're heroes.  If not, they can leave and not worry about it.  Who's going to chase them over the pond.  Either way they're going to get paid to lay the tracks.

Rail is successful in the NE because they're been forced to use trains to get around, albiet underground.  It's second nature to a good bit of the city dwellers.  And when they do move out of the city, driving is a second thought, not the first.  Rail is successful in the NE because of the Acela - DC to Boston with NYC, Baltimore, Philly, Newark?, and other smallish cities.  It's about a 7 hr trip from one end to the other and most of the passengers are students & workers travelling to a city that they can't afford to drive in.  It's not the cost as much as it's the convienence - a lot of people in a little space. The same concept that fuels trains in EU and China and Japan.

I'm not saying that they can't tweak the route or make better suggestions, but who really travels from Orlando to Tampa that would think it a better idea to ride the train than to drive.  How many people live in Newark and work in Boston or NYC where it's a headache to drive? 

 

 

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Dulles GreenwayThe Dulles Greenway is a privately owned toll road in Northern Virginia, running for 12.53 miles[1] (20.17 km) northwest from the end of the Dulles Toll Road to the Leesburg Bypass (U.S. Route 15/State Route 7). Although privately owned, the highway is also part of SR 267. The speed limit is 65 miles per hour (105 km/h).


The main toll plaza of the Dulles GreenwayThe road was privately built and is not a public asset. The current owner is "Toll Road Investors Partnership II" (TRIP II), which is a consortium of the Bryant/Crane Family LLC, the Franklin L. Haney Co.,[16] and Kellogg Brown & Root (KB&R). On August 31, 2005, Australian firm Macquarie Infrastructure Group announced that they had paid $533 million to TRIP II to acquire its 86.7% ownership of the Greenway, and were negotiating with KB&R for the remaining ownership rights.[17]

[edit] HistoryThe road was envisioned as early as the 1970s, when new residents were attracted to Loudoun County because of the relatively low cost of real estate. The Greenway proposal prompted the enactment of the Virginia Highway Corporation Act of 1988[18] that authorizes the construction of new toll roads without the use of eminent domain[19] under rates set by the Virginia Corporation Commission.[18] The law requires the facility to be turned over to the state after a stated time period.[20] The road was completed and opened in 1995, but the original owners defaulted on its loan due to lower than projected use.[21] It receives no public funds, was built with no subsidies, and is policed at its own expense, competing as a wholly private enterprise with the state-built and -maintained roads.[22] Tolls are computed to assure that the owner will recover the original investment plus a return on that investment. The losses incurred during the early years of the project are rolled forward to justify higher tolls in later years. Subsequent improvements, which were constructed in exchange for an extension of the toll road to 2056, include adding a third lane in each direction, resurfacing the entire road in 2009, and the construction of an improved eastbound exit ramp to Dulles Airport in 2009.[23]

[edit] DescriptionThe main toll plaza for the Dulles Greenway is located just west of the exits for Route 28 and Dulles Airport. Additional toll plazas are located on westbound entrance ramps and eastbound exit ramps with the exception of Battlefield Parkway (Exit 2) in Leesburg. The toll varies depending on the toll plaza traversed. As of 1 July 2010 (2010 -07-01)[update], the base toll collected for two-axle vehicles ranges from $2.60 ($2.15 with E-ZPass) at the Shreve Mill Rd plaza to $4.45 at the main plaza to and from the Dulles Toll Road (including 75 cents for the Dulles Toll Road toll).[24] The maximum toll rises to $5.25 (including the 75-cent Dulles Toll Road toll) during "congestion pricing" hours, which are 6:30 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. eastbound and 4:00 p.m. to 6:30 p.m. westbound.[24] A previous increase in the base fare and the introduction of congestion pricing occurred in January 2009. Tolls are set to rise an additional 30 cents per trip in 2012.[25] Vehicles traveling through the main toll plaza to or from the Dulles Toll Road are charged two tolls: one for the Dulles Toll Road, and one for the Dulles Greenway. Cash tolls are accepted during limited hours, and credit cards and E-ZPass transponder payments are accepted at all times.[26] The Greenway is also one of two routes where a subscription membership (exclusive to E-ZPass) allows for an additional discount. Alternate (free) routes include State Route 7 and State Route 28, both of which are generally more congested.[27]

The Greenway was later widened to six lanes from the mainline toll plaza to Leesburg. Use of the Greenway has grown, reflecting the increased population of Loudoun County. In 1996, the Greenway served 6.3 million trips, growing to 21 million in 2006.[27] However, as a result of the January 2009 toll increase, usage has dropped to an average of 47,490 tolls a day.[21]

[edit] ControversiesThe 1988 statute authorizing the private toll road permitted toll increases above the rate of inflation under a three-part test: (1) the new fee must not "materially discourage" drivers from using the road, (2) the company must not make more than a "reasonable rate of return" from the increase, and (3) the road's benefit must match its cost.[28] Critics claim that the drop in use following the 2009 toll increase is evidence that the test has not been met.[who?] Rep. Frank Wolf (R-Va.), the Congressman representing the area served by the road, stated, "It's highway robbery. It's a disgrace. Everyone knows that these tolls are ripping people off and there's not much we can do about it."[21]

[thelakelander]

The road was completed and opened in 1995, but the original owners defaulted on its loan due to lower than projected use.

Although the original owners still ended up defaulting on the example you used, whenever you have a captive audience and limited (to no) competition in place, an exception to the general rule can be found.  Walt Disney World's monorail and bus system would be an example for the mass transit side.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disney_World_Monorail_System

If anything, we should look at the Dulles tollroad's original owner's failure as a potential example of what would happen to Florida's HSR if a private operator fell into default.  It appears the Dulles tollroad is still in operation and the taxpayers did not have to bear the brunt of its costs, as Rick Scott suggests that Florida taxpayers would.

[thelakelander]

In my simple mind, if you put out an RFP, technically, you don't have anything to lose, but technically a company submitting a proposal doesn't either.  They can propose that this will work and that ridership will be that, but they can't physically put people on the train.  And if it succeeds, they're heroes.  If not, they can leave and not worry about it.  Who's going to chase them over the pond.  Either way they're going to get paid to lay the tracks.

All of the teams looking to bid on constructing and operating Florida's line would have had US companies as a part of them:

http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/storage/interested-firms/HighSpeedRailTeams_111210.pdf

In the event, your fears are realized and an operator fails, look to your Dulles example of how things move forward.

Rail is successful in the NE because they're been forced to use trains to get around, albiet underground.  It's second nature to a good bit of the city dwellers.  And when they do move out of the city, driving is a second thought, not the first.  Rail is successful in the NE because of the Acela - DC to Boston with NYC, Baltimore, Philly, Newark?, and other smallish cities.  It's about a 7 hr trip from one end to the other and most of the passengers are students & workers travelling to a city that they can't afford to drive in.  It's not the cost as much as it's the convienence - a lot of people in a little space. The same concept that fuels trains in EU and China and Japan.

This does not explain the success of rail in places like Salt Lake City, Saint Louis, San Diego, Houston and Dallas.  Pulling off a successful rail system isn't as difficult as we try to make it.

I'm not saying that they can't tweak the route or make better suggestions, but who really travels from Orlando to Tampa that would think it a better idea to ride the train than to drive.  How many people live in Newark and work in Boston or NYC where it's a headache to drive?

Not many people travel from Orlando to Tampa on a regular basis.  However, a ton travel the corridor for shorter trips (ex. Tampa to Lakeland, Lakeland to Disney or a Disney or I-Drive to Orlando's airport).  A simple service modification of mixing express and local trains along this route will make it more accessible to additional local trips (ex. DT Tampa to Seminole Hard Rock Casino, Plant City to Lakeland, etc.).  We can do this without giving up access to $2.4 billion.

 

[tufsu1]

In my simple mind, if you put out an RFP, technically, you don't have anything to lose, but technically a company submitting a proposal doesn't either.  

technically, not true....these consortiums will be required to show bonding/financiang capacbility for close to $300 million....the banks will require pretty extensive studies and pretty strong assurances that this is feasible prior to releasing the money...given how lending has been going the last few years, I would assume they will be look at this thoroughly (and probably skeptically).

[tufsu1]

Not many people travel from Orlando to Tampa on a regular basis.  However, a ton travel the corridor for shorter trips (ex. Tampa to Lakeland, Lakeland to Disney or a Disney or I-Drive to Orlando's airport). 

currently, about 10 million people travel I-4 each year....and that doesn't include the part in Orlando north of Disney!

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

That was kind of my point - the original owners did default.  Then it was purchased by Macquarie - and it  has been operating at a loss ever since - because of loan payments, not because it wasn't generating revenue over typical O & M costs.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I would assume they will be look at this thoroughly (and probably skeptically).

And my assumption is that they probably already have looked at it skeptically and thouroughly and is the reason that they aren't willing to assume the risk.  What's a 300M investment if your looking at 2.4B in guaranteed returns.

[thelakelander]

What is your alternative?  I-4 operates at a larger deficit every year.  Adding lanes to it will cost us a lot more than $2.4 billion and will require state dollars.  In addition, using the infrastructure for more than HSR (train wrap advertising, commuter rail, TOD, naming rights, etc.) will give you the ability to generate additional revenue.  For example, Austin's Capital Metro's rail line is used for commuter rail and freight.

[thelakelander]

I would assume they will be look at this thoroughly (and probably skeptically).

And my assumption is that they probably already have looked at it skeptically and thouroughly and is the reason that they aren't willing to assume the risk.  What's a 300M investment if your looking at 2.4B in guaranteed returns.

Originally, I believe the plan was to fund this rail project just like we do our road projects.  100% public money (this was the case before the Jeb Bush era).  Then we figured out we could actually get the private sector to invest funds and even operate and maintain the thing.  This style of funding mechanism is the wave of the future on how we're going to have to fund infrastructure improvements.