Gov. Scott's Rail Decisions To Impact Jacksonville

[FayeforCure]

Here is an interesting survey:

According to a recent Rockefeller Foundation survey, 80 percent of those polled agree that federal investment to improve and modernize transportation "will boost local economies and create millions of jobs from construction to engineering."  

Why does Florida persist in staying behind the times? Is our only claim to fame fantasy land Disney?

Florida Governor Scott Puts Short-Sighted Partisan Politics Above Peoples' Transportation Needs and Job Creation

Scott's ridership math is misleading and uninformed. He attempts to justify his ridership skepticism by saying that "only" 3.2 million people ride the Northeast's Acela trains, but ignores the other 7.6 million passengers who take the slower, but less expensive, Northeast Regional trains in the same corridor. Together, these trains serve more passengers than all airlines combined in these markets.

Scott has cost us thousands of jobs and billions in economic development at a time when people are hurting. He has prioritized scoring partisan political points against the President over gaining job creation and better transportation options for many people. The American public deserves better, especially in these challenging times.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-learner/florida-governor-scott-pu_b_824892.html

NE US region doesn't even resemble touristy Central Florida. I'm all for crude comparisons where more accurate data are absent, but this is so over the top........that I'm surprised anybody takes Scott serious.

[ralpho37]

@ Lakelander:  If you want to "separate ideology from dreams," then let's do so...

1)  The Florida HSR Project is NOT a shovel-ready project.
2)  As for reallocating funds, I'm not sure the idea is to reallocate HSR funds to ports; as you aptly noted, we can't reallocate funds we don't have.  The idea is to invest state money into ports.  I'm not entirely sure what is meant by the feds and private sector indemnifying the state for cost overruns.  The question is not if cost overruns happen, it's when they will happen.  High speed rail is not a sustainable investment in the private sector.  No private investor in their right mind would invest in passenger rail.
3)  If you think CSX is giving Jacksonville special attention or treatment just because their headquarters is located here, that's laughable.  CSX has always had a large presence in the Jacksonville area, and they are moving forward in their negotiations with the city despite the current HSR-Sunrail ordeals.  I agree with you that they did, in fact, state that they would fund a port connection with money made from selling the A-line.  However, if the line doesn't get sold, the line will still be built as long as they can cut a deal with the city to do so.

[ralpho37]

I couldn't agree with you more Stephen.  But that was in a different era, when overhead and operating costs were nothing compared to today.  That's why beginning in the 1950's, the nation's railroads began to eliminate their passenger service.  That's why Amtrak exists: because the railroads could not financially justify keeping passenger operations around.  Amtrak is a government-run operation, without government funding, it would not exist.  If you look at any major passenger rail operation (high speed or otherwise) around the world, you will find that they are heavily subsidized by their respective government.

[JeffreyS]

As all major transportation is.

[Lunican]

It wasn't costs that killed the passenger train; it was their government funded competition.

[ralpho37]

If you're speaking of interstate highways, then yes that was a major reason as to why ridership declined, but to say "it wasn't costs" is untrue.  Declining ridership + high costs killed passenger rail.  But regardless, the fact is that modern-day passenger rail has to compete with airlines and highways, rendering it unprofitable (even more so than back then).

[thelakelander]

@ Lakelander:  If you want to "separate ideology from dreams," then let's do so...

1)  The Florida HSR Project is NOT a shovel-ready project.

Where do you get this from?  It was shovel-ready according to the federal government's standards.  If it were not, it never would have received the $2.4 billion.

2)  As for reallocating funds, I'm not sure the idea is to reallocate HSR funds to ports; as you aptly noted, we can't reallocate funds we don't have.  The idea is to invest state money into ports.  I'm not entirely sure what is meant by the feds and private sector indemnifying the state for cost overruns.  The question is not if cost overruns happen, it's when they will happen.  High speed rail is not a sustainable investment in the private sector.  No private investor in their right mind would invest in passenger rail.

Your entire statement here is nothing but opinion.  No company was even giving a chance to put together a bid, cost or ridership estimate for their product.  So how can you come to a conclusion on anything when the bidding process was never allowed to happen?  If a vetting process by the private sector was allowed to take place, we could have found out what was opinion and fact.

3)  If you think CSX is giving Jacksonville special attention or treatment just because their headquarters is located here, that's laughable.  CSX has always had a large presence in the Jacksonville area, and they are moving forward in their negotiations with the city despite the current HSR-Sunrail ordeals.  I agree with you that they did, in fact, state that they would fund a port connection with money made from selling the A-line.  However, if the line doesn't get sold, the line will still be built as long as they can cut a deal with the city to do so.

It is laughable. Especially since I never implied such a statement.  In fact, I said just the opposite, in regards to JAXPORT.  JAXPORT is big for us locally, but its peanuts on a national wide level, thus not a major priority of CSX.  Combined with the fact that the city doesn't have any money, don't count on any major financial deals being set anytime soon.  Thus, don't be surprised if any real port investment doesn't happen fast enough to keep the competition from getting the jump on us.

[JeffreyS]

But if Sunrail happens CSX has committed part of those proceeds to meeting Jaxport's needs.

[tufsu1]

But if Sunrail happens CSX has committed part of those proceeds to meeting Jaxport's needs.

sadly this will be next on the chopping block...unless of course the Governor is a straight up hypocrite!

[Ocklawaha]

ALL PHOTOS - JACKSONVILLE

Scott has singled out the ports and highways for "investment," from the beginning, and said he would not "subsidize rail." To break this down to the battles I've fought for 45 years here is a crash course in Republican-Tea Party-Conservative Speak:

TRANSPORTATION INVESTMENT = Anything spent on highways, airports, and sea or river ports...
TRANSPORTATION SUBSIDY = Anything spent on rail except in the rare case where it benefits a major political   platform supporting industry, or highway, air, sea and river. In no case will this EVER involve passengers.

JAXPORT = We elected (JACKSONVILLE) are largely responsible for electing Scott, he owes us and our pocket pissing Republican-Tea Party-Conservative leadership. Watch for Scott to "make nice" and toss us a bone that will assist, along with Federal Monies AND remember MICA told us at MJ that Jaxport was slated to become a "SUPER PORT":

The critical Mile-Point curve in the river.
The Intermodal Rail Facility
and perhaps even the CSX cut-off...

BTW, since everyone is SO CONCERNED about our rail situation, let me explain that the CSX cut-off AS PLANNED will do immediate damage to railroad employment and our local railroad infrastructure in Jacksonville. It will have the effect that all of the Port Switching now done by CSX from their MONCRIEF and EXPORT YARDS, will shift to WAYCROSS!

The way to fix that is for the CITY OF JACKSONVILLE (as if we had a brain) to push for the JAXPORT rail link to run straight west from the current connection with the CSX on North Main Street, over and around the northwest section of the city, to link with CSX and with the NORFOLK SOUTHERN over which the FLORIDA EAST COAST has operating rights... ONE LINK - JOINTLY PORT-CITY-RAILROAD OWNED - 3 NEW CONNECTIONS.

Sharp eyes might note I penned in a small spur into the Airport Free Trade Zone which would make this line even more valuable to the City and possibly bring in another state agency JAA to help finance the build.

OCKLAWAHA

[dougskiles]

If we want any of this we have to do it without the State. it is just that simple. The real question becomes how bad do the citizens of our region want commuter rail, HSR, streetcars, etc.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=533013

Great article, fsujax.  Is there any chance that Georgia gets the $2.4 billion from the feds?  Where are they at in the plan for HSR?

[thelakelander]

Georgia's HSR is decades away from being reality. Our money will be going to the shovel ready projects (CA, NY, IL).

[Cricket]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/25/florida.high.speed.rail/index.html?eref=rss_us&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+rss/cnn_us+(RSS:+U.S.)&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

[Ocklawaha]

Georgia's HSR is decades away from being reality. Our money will be going to the shovel ready projects (CA, NY, IL).

SWEET!

It is only part of the HSR because there are sections of track that could be easily rated at 90 mph. IN FACT the track from our current Amtrak Station all the way to Folkston GA. is absolutely able to handle 110 mph trains - been there - done that.

What LaHood is trying to do is crack open the corridor to conventional trains once again, and I'd be willing to bet he has an eye on the FEC RY - AMTRAK deal, meaning that the FEC RY'S planned two trains each way daily will either become 4 each way, or perhaps 1 more daily each way between Tampa-Orlando-JAX, and Miami-Daytona-Jax.

In either case look for suddenly getting the JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL FUNDING up and running quickly, the FRA and USDOT via the FTA will see to it that we can handle the additional trains, and the only place to do that is DOWNTOWN.

Also watch for a huge increase in AMTRAK JACKSONVILLE, because depending on how these trains are routed, then toss in a possible Los Angeles-New Orleans-Jax restoration, and your morning arrivals and departures will start to get interesting. THINK JOBS.

Jacksonville, FL (ET)
ARRIVALS FROM NEW YORK - SOUTHBOUND....................6:55a.....9:53a
ARRIVAL FROM NEW ORLEANS - TERMINATING............................10:00a
ARRIVALS FROM ATLANTA - SOUTHBOUND.....................6:45a......................4:00p

DEPARTURES TO MIAMI - SOUTHBOUND.........................7:10a.....10:25a.......4:15p
DEPARTURES TO ORLANDO/TAMPA - SOUTHBOUND..........7:15a......10:30a

So if you can read the sample timetable (read down) you can see we'd be switching NY cars into a MIAMI and a TAMPA/ORLANDO train, and switching ATLANTA cars into the same MIAMI and ORLANDO/TAMPA trains.
In the next column we're switching NY cars into a MIAMI and a ORLANDO/TAMPA train and switching cars from LOS ANGELES and NEW ORLEANS into the same two southbound departures.

In the other direction, somewhere around dinner time, we'd be doing the reverse and sending these trains back.

We would go from 2 movements daily to over 20... I spell that JOBS.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Let's cut to the chase. What's your timeline and cost for all the things in your post above to become reality? Also do you believe the majority of the $2.4 billion will be redirected to this?  I'm willing to place a gentlemen's bet that any rail connection between us and Atlanta is still more than a decade away from happening and that most of the $2.4 billion will go to CA, NY and the Midwest.