Group wants Theme Park Downtown

[dougskiles]

I like the skyway as a means to connect the southbank and San Marco to downtown.  After that, I think a streetcar system would be a much better way of getting to the sports complex.  Much less expensive too.  And we might even be able to get it operational before the Jaguars leave Jacksonville!

[copperfiend]

Does Maxwell House do tours?

I don't think so.

[fieldafm]

Does Maxwell House do tours?

They don't, but a really cool tour you should consider taking downtown is Sally Industries where they make the animatronics for theme parks.

Then swing over to the Maritime Museum at the Landing then to the museum at the Ritz Theatre... all free.

[PeeJayEss]

I like the skyway as a means to connect the southbank and San Marco to downtown.  After that, I think a streetcar system would be a much better way of getting to the sports complex.  Much less expensive too.  And we might even be able to get it operational before the Jaguars leave Jacksonville!

The expense is certainly an issue that I didn't address. I would lean towards Skyway to the stadiums just as a way to reduce transfers. There's no reason, to my knowledge, to go beyond the stadiums in that direction, so you'd have a very short streetcar line. If coming from Riverside, you'd need to take streetcar, skyway, streetcar (assuming any of this is built) for a very short distance. From San Marco or Southbank, you'd still have to take skyway then streetcar. I just don't think having the extra line is worth it if its only going that far. Also, going to the stadium, you don't have the issue that you do in the historic neighborhoods of the appropriateness of an elevated "futuristic" train not fitting in (yes, that was the best I could word that sentence).

But again, the expense is an important consideration. And if the streetcar line went, say, from Avondale through to the stadium (connecting at Hemming Park I'd recommend), then it would work better than requiring use of the Skyway to get across a short span of DT.

[Captain Zissou]

^ Good points.  If there is an urban neighborhood wide streetcar system, with an extension towards the stadium, that makes sense.  If you're running multiple lines, it makes more sense to continue the skyway.  Separate streetcar lines would need separate trolley barns, maintenance facilities, operations facilities, and other duplicated components, which would probably bring the cost up to the level of extending the skyway.

[dougskiles]

The way I see it, you have a streetcar line running from Riverside/Avondale to the Sports Complex.  One of the stops would be at the Skyway Central Station (on Bay Street just past Pearl Street).  So it would not require any transfers for that group.  People coming from San Marco would make 1 transfer at Central Station.  Even if they extended the Skyway from Central Station to the Sports Complex, the people from San Marco would likely need to make a transfer because the San Marco line goes to the FSCJ station - although I suppose that could be easily changed on game day.  Either way, making one transfer is not uncommon.  In fact at most subway systems I have ridden, one transfer is the norm.

I would go as far as throwing STJR a bone and removing the portions of the Skyway between the Prime Osborne and Central Station - because it would be duplicated by the streetcar.  Then extend the Skyway from the FSCJ station along Hogans Creek to Shands at 8th Street.  This section would not involve as many street crossings and would not be a street killer as many claim the Skyway to be along Hogan Street between Central Station and Hemming Plaza.

I used to think the streetcar should run on Riverside Ave, but after looking at it on Google Earth, it probably does more good on Park Street through Brooklyn so that it can help to revitalize that area as a pedestrian friendly neighborhood.

The streetcar O&M could be right next to the Skyway O&M and probably share staff and portions of the facility.

Here is a non-transportation planner's idea...  be sure to scroll the image right to see the entire thing.

[PeeJayEss]

I used to think the streetcar should run on Riverside Ave, but after looking at it on Google Earth, it probably does more good on Park Street through Brooklyn so that it can help to revitalize that area as a pedestrian friendly neighborhood.

You're probably right about that, but due to all the businesses right on Riverside, that would be a tougher sell for the powers that be. I do think it should run on Park (especially in Riverside - maybe switch to another street in Avondale as it starts to curve out) just for the purpose of increasing access. If its running on Riverside, its super convenient for people between Riverside and the river but less convenient for people, say, on Post or further. If you move it to Park, its still quite convenient for people on Riverside, but its significantly more convenient for people the other way. Of course, none of this argument gives consideration to right of way and constructability, etc.

[tufsu1]

The LRTP and Mobility Plan envision streetcar running on Park from the convention center, then jogging over to Riverside Avenue through the old Brooklyn Park area...in Riverside, the streetcar would run on Oak Street (where it used to be back in the day) to King....then up King to Park

[Ocklawaha]

This section would not involve as many street crossings and would not be a street killer as many claim the Skyway to be along Hogan Street between Central Station and Hemming Plaza.

I don't understand Jacksonville's fixation on "something dead." Street killing roads? Street killing monorails? Even Business killing parking meters...

I think it all boils down to using what we have and making something great out of it. Take HOGAN STREET, dead by most opinions, yet it is above all other downtown streets, thanks to the Skyway, an opportunity to create a focal point downtown. Ever hear of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon?

IMAGINE THE HANGING GARDENS OF HOGAN STREET: a Jacksonville Attraction

This would sort of bring a whole new meaning to Jacksonville's hanging baskets, and I bet grants and garden clubs would cause it to cost ZERO!

OCKLAWAHA

[PeeJayEss]

The LRTP and Mobility Plan envision streetcar running on Park from the convention center, then jogging over to Riverside Avenue through the old Brooklyn Park area...in Riverside, the streetcar would run on Oak Street (where it used to be back in the day) to King....then up King to Park

That's not too bad.

I think it all boils down to using what we have and making something great out of it. Take HOGAN STREET, dead by most opinions, yet it is above all other downtown streets, thanks to the Skyway, an opportunity to create a focal point downtown. Ever hear of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon?

We could probably just do that ourselves. And I'd rather the city not be involved, honestly. Actually, I don't think you could do this too well on Hogan. Sidewalks aren't that wide, buildings and Skyway give it reduced sun exposure. I don't think you could pull off that feel right there. I think you'd have to put something like that on the sidewalk right outside of a park (people probably wouldn't want it on the sidewalk in front of their house, and it would look weird), probably in the outer core. Again though, no city government. They should be spending their money on business and housing incentives. Beautifying isn't gonna get anyone downtown.

[dougskiles]

We could probably just do that ourselves. And I'd rather the city not be involved, honestly. Actually, I don't think you could do this too well on Hogan. Sidewalks aren't that wide, buildings and Skyway give it reduced sun exposure. I don't think you could pull off that feel right there. I think you'd have to put something like that on the sidewalk right outside of a park (people probably wouldn't want it on the sidewalk in front of their house, and it would look weird), probably in the outer core. Again though, no city government. They should be spending their money on business and housing incentives. Beautifying isn't gonna get anyone downtown.

Very good point.  Most people probably don't know that the beautification efforts in San Marco Square are paid for by the San Marco Merchant's Association with dues and fundraising events.  SMPS also chips in with special projects.  The city performs basic maintenance on a few items.  The rest is paid for by the community.

Another area that could be turned into a 'hanging garden' is the section beneath the Skyway between the San Marco Station and Riverplace Station.  I have even thought that it would be cool to setup shipping containers (similar to what has been discussed for the pier) in certain areas and provide them to artists for studios.

[Ocklawaha]

Actually we'd have plenty of room to work under the Skyway along Hogan. The primary structural addition would fit between the Skyway and the Buildings which is a swath about 15 feet wide. As for directly under it, there is some parking and we'd have to close a few spaces at a time while trellis supports and plants were installed.

Anyone that thinks this would somehow "take away from Hogan" hasn't been on that sidewalk at 2 pm on the 10Th of July! 

I'm not delusional enough to think this would be a magic bullet for downtown, however as it matured, it would become a major artistic focal point. I'd be willing to bet that within a few years studios and coffee shops would be laying claim to the entire strip. Unique streets CAN become something of an attraction themselves, Rodeo Drive, Worth Avenue, Park Avenue, Olvera Street, Lombard Street...etc.

OCKLAWAHA

[wsansewjs]

What about Ocklawaha Street? 

-Josh

[Seraphs]

Actually we'd have plenty of room to work under the Skyway along Hogan. The primary structural addition would fit between the Skyway and the Buildings which is a swath about 15 feet wide. As for directly under it, there is some parking and we'd have to close a few spaces at a time while trellis supports and plants were installed.

Anyone that thinks this would somehow "take away from Hogan" hasn't been on that sidewalk at 2 pm on the 10Th of July! 

I'm not delusional enough to think this would be a magic bullet for downtown, however as it matured, it would become a major artistic focal point. I'd be willing to bet that within a few years studios and coffee shops would be laying claim to the entire strip. Unique streets CAN become something of an attraction themselves, Rodeo Drive, Worth Avenue, Park Avenue, Olvera Street, Lombard Street...etc.

OCKLAWAHA

Most people have no vision.  I think you have a exceptional idea.  I not only hope it could come to fruition I would help.  This would add so much to the character of downtown and would be memorable to anyone who has seen it.

[Noone]

I like the skyway as a means to connect the southbank and San Marco to downtown.  After that, I think a streetcar system would be a much better way of getting to the sports complex.  Much less expensive too.  And we might even be able to get it operational before the Jaguars leave Jacksonville!

+1. I need to ride the skyway again. Its been years. The streetcar shot from Prime Osborn to the stadium on Bay St. would be a positive project.

I know I don't follow the mobility threads but is this in the plans? If not is it something that needs to be given more of a priority given the potential Govt. takeover of the Entertainment district by the DIA?