Gov. Scott's Rail Decisions To Impact Jacksonville

[Gators312]

Lakelander,

Thank you for your reply with such useful information.   

I also didn't think the article itself was an attack either, just several of the comments made sure everyone knew that Scott wasn't their guy, and for the record he isn't my guy either.  I just am sick of partisan bullshit that everyone likes to spout from both sides of the aisle.  I think any decision Scott makes or Obama for that matter is dismissed as a bad idea from partisan dolts.

Mass transit, especially rail transit needs to happen in Florida.  It just can't be an endlessly subsidized project.   

[ralpho37]

I tend to disagree with everything written in this article.  I think this is a blessing in disguise and it has the potential to help Jacksonville more than hurt it.

1)  Rick Scott seems to have a good grasp on the enormous financial burden that a high speed rail line would put on this state's budget.  Passenger rail does not generate profit.  If this thing gets built, at the first sign of funding problems, everyone would consider high speed rail a "failure" and avoid any investment in its future.  The truth is, passenger rail (let alone high speed rail) needs to be heavily subsidized by government dollars in order to remain in operation, and right now, the state simply does not have the funds to start a project like this.

2)  If the plan is to reallocate funds to improve Florida's ports, why are we complaining about this?  Jacksonville desperately needs to deepen its harbor and develop rail access in order to secure its future as one of the East Coast's most successful ports.  We're talking about cutting passenger rail projects here.  Signing a deal with CSX to directly serve JaxPort has nothing to do with high speed rail or Sunrail getting axed.  If anything, this increases the chances that the CSX-JaxPort deal gets done.

3)  Jacksonville has neither the plans nor the funding to develop a commuter rail system.  Sure, JTA's "master plan" for the future is nice, but there has been nothing to suggest in the way of funding that it will get done at all.  The idea that the Sunrail deal is a window of opportunity for Jacksonville's commuter rail future is a fantasy.  There has been no evidence whatsoever that the state is interested in starting plans for commuter rail in Jacksonville.  Their focus has been on Orlando, and the chances that they would fund 2 commuter rails (let alone 1) is borderline-ridiculous, both because the money doesn't exist and interest from JTA doesn't exist.

[JeffreyS]

1. both private developers and the fed have offered to indemnify the state against cost overruns.
2.  the fed will not allow be funds 2 b redirected to the ports.
3. the jacksonville mobility plan includes both commuter rail and streetcar .   

[thelakelander]

I tend to disagree with everything written in this article.  I think this is a blessing in disguise and it has the potential to help Jacksonville more than hurt it.

1)  Rick Scott seems to have a good grasp on the enormous financial burden that a high speed rail line would put on this state's budget.  Passenger rail does not generate profit.  If this thing gets built, at the first sign of funding problems, everyone would consider high speed rail a "failure" and avoid any investment in its future.  The truth is, passenger rail (let alone high speed rail) needs to be heavily subsidized by government dollars in order to remain in operation, and right now, the state simply does not have the funds to start a project like this.

We need to separate the facts from ideology in this discussion.  

Ideology

The Tampa/Orlando HSR project would have financially cost the state.

Fact

The $2.4 billion for HSR is a federal stimulus grant that to be used for a shovel ready HSR project.  The remaining money needed for its construction was going to be paid by the private sector.  No state money would have been involved.  This would suggest that he doesn't have a firm grasp on this issue.

2)  If the plan is to reallocate funds to improve Florida's ports, why are we complaining about this?  Jacksonville desperately needs to deepen its harbor and develop rail access in order to secure its future as one of the East Coast's most successful ports.  We're talking about cutting passenger rail projects here.  Signing a deal with CSX to directly serve JaxPort has nothing to do with high speed rail or Sunrail getting axed.  If anything, this increases the chances that the CSX-JaxPort deal gets done.

They have everything to do with each other, but first we need to separate ideology and dreams from reality.

Ideology & Dreams

We'll reallocate the $2.4 billion to be spent on our ports and roads instead.

Scott said he would rather the federal money go into Florida's ports.

"We've got the opportunity with the expansion of the Panama Canal, the opportunity with the economies of Central and South America," he said.

The governor is not the only obstacle. "Our enemy at this point," Nelson said, "is time."

LaHood, a former Republican congressman appointed by President Barack Obama, is a staunch proponent of Florida's project but could grant only a one week reprieve. A spokeswoman for LaHood said the federal stimulus money was intended to be put to work as quickly as possible.

Already New York, California and Washington have lobbied for Florida's share.[/color]
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/national/florida-lawmakers-fight-to-keep-rail-money-gov-rick-scott-rejected/1152200

Fact

We can't reallocate money we don't have.  The $2.4 billion for HSR is a federal grant.  We've got to the 25th to decide if we will let it be spent on constructing HSR in this state or not.  If our final answer is no, the money will be reallocated to HSR projects in other states.

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood gave Florida a week to come up with a way to salvage the high-speed train that would link Orlando with Tampa or he will send $2.4 billion in federal stimulus money elsewhere.

LaHood set the Feb. 25 deadline after meeting briefly Thursday with five Democrats from Florida in the office of Sen. Bill Nelson in Washington.

They told LaHood they might try to arrange for the Tampa Bay Area Regional Transportation Authority, Amtrak or the Tri-Rail commuter operation in South Florida to take responsibility for the high-speed train after Gov. Rick Scott rejected the offer of the Obama administration to pay for 90 percent of the $2.7 billion project.[/color]
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-02-17/news/os-high-speed-rail-fate-20110217_1_high-speed-train-rick-scott-lahood

3)  Jacksonville has neither the plans nor the funding to develop a commuter rail system.  Sure, JTA's "master plan" for the future is nice, but there has been nothing to suggest in the way of funding that it will get done at all.  The idea that the Sunrail deal is a window of opportunity for Jacksonville's commuter rail future is a fantasy.  There has been no evidence whatsoever that the state is interested in starting plans for commuter rail in Jacksonville.  Their focus has been on Orlando, and the chances that they would fund 2 commuter rails (let alone 1) is borderline-ridiculous, both because the money doesn't exist and interest from JTA doesn't exist.

I don't understand how you can't see the link.  What happens to Sunrail is directly tied to Jax on several fronts.

1. The state would have to purchase the A line from CSX.  CSX is headquartered in Jax.

2. CSX has gone on the record and said, the rail related improvements they planned for Jaxport would be paid with from the profits of selling the A line to the State for Sunrail.

3. The track that Sunrail would operate on in Orlando is the same track that runs between DT Jax and Clay County.  As a part of the Sunrail deal, a significant portion of existing freight rail would be located to the S-line.  Without the freight relocation, its going to be pretty difficult to move forward with commuter rail on the A-line between DT and Clay.  All of this makes for a better argument to move forward with BRT between Riverside and Orange Park instead.

If we can't see how these things aren't related, its because we don't want to fully accept that they are.  

[thelakelander]

I just am sick of partisan bullshit that everyone likes to spout from both sides of the aisle.  I think any decision Scott makes or Obama for that matter is dismissed as a bad idea from partisan dolts.

I agree.

Mass transit, especially rail transit needs to happen in Florida.  It just can't be an endlessly subsidized project.

Without subsidies or creative financing, privately funded passenger rail (alone) won't happen.  We've subsidized our roads to the point to where we put private operators out of business.  The only reason, this Florida HSR thing would be able to possible generate revenue for a private operator is because the federal government would fund just about all of it's capital costs.  The $2.4 billion pretty much makes this a real life demonstration project for a private operator to sell their product to every single HSR project this country proposes in the next couple of decades.    

[BridgeTroll]

Ideology

The Tampa/Orlando HSR project would have financially cost the state.

Fact

The $2.4 billion for HSR is a federal stimulus grant that to be used for a shovel ready HSR project.  The remaining money needed for its construction was going to be paid by the private sector.  No state money would have been involved.  This would suggest that he doesn't have a firm grasp on this issue.

On the above point... Who pays for operation and maintenance?  What are those estimated costs?

[thelakelander]

The private sector operator.  I don't know what the estimated O&M costs would have been.  I suspect that would depend on who, what type of HSR system and what service frequencies would have been.  However, they never allowed the private companies who said they'd pay for it, run their own numbers and make an official bid.  This part is pretty much my entire gripe.  I still fail to see why its smart to pull the plug on the entire idea without letting rail professionals vet out the details to see if they would truly be willing to pay for O&M and assume all financial risks.

[avonjax]

The other large looming point everyone is missing here, is not the money or how this project is funded, but that this is the Republican conservative agenda. His outdated, and his anti "what's good for the people movement," is going to cost Florida thousands of jobs and progressive, positive growth. He needs to take his criminal behavior back to where he came and leave Florida alone. I never knew that NE FL was so blind they would help put this joker in office. The whole state will pay, and pay big for what is going to happen in the next 4 years. I guess 12 years of bad politics was not enough for most of Florida. When our jobless rate goes higher and we go bankrupt I guess everyone will be happy. And did anyone notice that  all our current woes only got noticed since Obama was elected? Is it just me? I wonder what the Republicans and Tea Party idiots will blame on him next?

[Gators312]

  The remaining money needed for its construction was going to be paid by the private sector.  No state money would have been involved.  This would suggest that he doesn't have a firm grasp on this issue.

Was this a guarantee?  What if the private sector did not come through, ala the Outer Beltway?  Or like the private interstate in Spartanburg/Greenville that just went bankrupt and back to the state?

1. The state would have to purchase the A line from CSX.  CSX is headquartered in Jax.

2. CSX has gone on the record and said, the rail related improvements they planned for Jaxport would be paid with from the profits of selling the A line to the State for Sunrail.

If I remember correctly CSX gets $660 Million for the purchase of the tracks and more to build a new facility, I'm sure they would say anything to make the sale.

Maybe I am being naive, but wouldn't CSX want to make improvements to increase capacity which in turn would increase profits?  I don't think the A line sale is necessary for CSX to make improvements in JAXPORT.

[thelakelander]

The Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel's position

Governor Scott's opposition to high-speed train makes little sense

Once again, it's doubtful that Gov. Rick Scott has made a decision that is in the state's best interest.

Last week, it was his unwise call for dumping a prescription drug database. And, on Wednesday, the governor dropped another bomb â€" announcing Florida would reject $2.4 billion from the federal government for a high-speed rail line linking Orlando and Tampa.

The proposed high-speed train has plenty of support. The Florida Chamber of Commerce and Associated Industries of Florida â€" the Sunshine State's premier business groups â€" both wanted it, knowing it could lead to the building of another economically simulative-if-not-transformative high-speed line planned for Orlando to Miami.

Moreover, state transportation officials had fashioned agreements where the train's private operator â€" not the state â€" would pay any cost overruns and the cost of operating and maintaining the trains for 30 years. The project would have generated an estimated 23,000 construction jobs and about another 1,000 permanent jobs needed to operate and maintain it.

Yet Gov. Scott seemed oblivious to much of this in announcing his ill-advised decision. The governor suggested Florida taxpayers could somehow end up paying cost overruns â€" and subsidize it because of poor ridership.

But didn't the governor know that Floridians almost certainly wouldn't have had to pay the $280 million needed to complete the project â€" money needed in addition to the federal government's $2.4 billion contribution â€" because a number of companies vying to operate the line indicated they'd assume that cost? That fact had conservative members of Congress, like John Mica, R-Winter Park, chairman of the House transportation committee, falling in line to support the Orlando-to-Tampa line.

Maybe our governor was influenced by the governors of New Jersey, Ohio and Wisconsin, who rejected federal funding for rail projects before Gov. Scott, and earned rave reviews from tea party enthusiasts for their efforts. No doubt they're clapping today for Gov. Scott in Eustis, Fla., where last week he unveiled his program-hacking, $66 billion budget to hundreds of tea party minions.

But Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker noted his state would have had to pay too much to operate and maintain its rail line, whereas Florida would have paid nothing for its line. And New Jersey Gov. Chris Christy noted that unlike what his state was facing, Florida's deal wasn't burdensome to taxpayers.

Gov. Scott needs to do what would benefit all of Florida, not what might play well before tea party enthusiasts. Because, once again, it looks like the governor has made a decision without having a full array of facts to support it.

BOTTOM LINE: Killing high-speed train another poor choice by Gov. Scott.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/editorials/os-governor-scott-high-speed-train-ed20110217,0,7878966.story

[thelakelander]

 The remaining money needed for its construction was going to be paid by the private sector.  No state money would have been involved.  This would suggest that he doesn't have a firm grasp on this issue.

Was this a guarantee?  What if the private sector did not come through, ala the Outer Beltway?  Or like the private interstate in Spartanburg/Greenville that just went bankrupt and back to the state?

This is the whole point of putting it out to bid.  If its not feasible it won't be done.  Also, the major difference in the Spartanburg/Greenville and Outer Beltway scenarios is that the federal government is funding just about all of the capital costs.  Not having to make up that $2.4 billion is a huge factor in whether this thing has a chance at being profitable, breaking even or flopping from a private financing standpoint.

If I remember correctly CSX gets $660 Million for the purchase of the tracks and more to build a new facility, I'm sure they would say anything to make the sale.

Maybe I am being naive, but wouldn't CSX want to make improvements to increase capacity which in turn would increase profits?  I don't think the A line sale is necessary for CSX to make improvements in JAXPORT.

I know JAXPORT is huge to us locally but in the grand scheme of things, its small peanuts.  Sure a company like CSX can invest in improving JAXPORT related infrastructure without the Sunrail deal.  However, there are plenty of other places where they can get a more sound ROI than worrying about Blount Island.  So, without the extra cash and now with the Hajin deal on ice, it may be awhile before they consider spending their own funds to improve JAXPORT's situation.  By the time they come around, it could be too late for JAXPORT, considering the competition isn't sitting still.

[Gators312]

Is any part of Sunrail dependent on Florida getting HSR? 

[PeeJayEss]

All for HSR, but it should go from city to city. Not from outskirts of city to random college town to suburb to theme park to outskirts of city. Its not HS if you make it stop every 20 miles. Have a station in downtown Tampa, downtown Orlando, then expand to downtown Miami and Ft Lauderdale, then Jax. Taking high speed rail from Orlando international to Disney is a waste. You don't save any time because its so short. Having the train go to the airport, also a dumb idea. Long distance rail should take people to the center of the city where they can actually do something. Saying the area around these stations will be walkable once infilling develops around them is simply a fantasy. All this plan does is take people from one parking lot to another, and it doesn't even do it that quickly because it has to stop at so many parking lots.

I want HSR, but I want it right.

[thelakelander]

Is any part of Sunrail dependent on Florida getting HSR?

Sunrail would have never been approved without Florida wanting to get HSR stimulus dollars at the time.  With the decision to take out HSR because of it being a bad state investment (not true, because the state wouldn't have had to pay anything), its only logical to revisit the Sunrail issue (the state bears the brunt of the costs here), if held to the same standards.

[thelakelander]

I want HSR, but I want it right.

Sending the $2.4 billion away gets you no where closer to your wish.  There's no alternative on the table and there won't be for years when this goes down the drain.  After all, we've been debating this exact project for the last +20 years or so. 

If you want it right, then you want it put out to bid by the private sector, in a manner that allows them to make modifications that makes it feasible to the point of where they'd risk their own funds on it.  If you're willing to wait until your grandkids have kids, then pass without an alternative plan or funding is the way to go.