Florida's firm HSR Plans were based on Decades long Planning

[FayeforCure]

Glad to join Faye.

First, based on the current funding formula, where the Feds earmark funds and leave the states to carry the rest, is a recipe for operator bankruptcy. This doesn't occur in Europe because there is a long term funding formula to support rail. VAT on fuels is significantly higher there due to this.  Without an overall plan (like a HTF) and treating HSR with these yearly earmarks makes the process much to political and subject to whims. Intent is good, methods are not.

I think everyone agrees that the future of passenger rail support is based on some form of revenue redirection. Amtrak works this way through the TEA programs and other sources. So we do have a domestic history and experience.

Most of the objections I have seen here on MJ or in the press haven't been blanket, but more critical of the process and methods. So I don't think it's an total "anti-rail" argument being made in all cases.

While I would agree that some vision is required for a project such as this, some are critical of the execution because the process as it is right now is broken, if anything incomplete.

While HSR is desirable and I agree with you Faye it should be pursued, but under the current funding model and planning process ( as Ock has clearly laid out) it is not sustainable.

The MPO solution as described above would make it a federal problem if a consortium fails.

Also:

More importantly, in criticizing Scott's decision to halt Florida's plan to become the first state to offer a high-speed-rail system, Ring knows something about creating a climate of innovation and jobs.

He was one of the early executives in Yahoo.com -- launching the Internet company's East Coast operation from his apartment in New York.

And for a number of years, Ring worked at the Yahoo headquarters in Silicon Valley in California -- which some consider the epicenter of American innovation.

and

As a former business executive, like Scott, Ring said he understands the governor's concerns about the cost of the $2.7 billion high-speed-rail system.

But Ring said "sometimes you need a loss leader" if in the end it draws more economic activity.

Ring argues that building the nation's first high-speed-rail system -- with the federal government and private industry paying the cost -- would have sent a major signal that Florida was a state interested in innovation and cutting-edge technologies.

He said Scott's decision to reject that opportunity was "huge."

"I think what it does is we go back to what we were," Ring said. "People look at us from a standpoint that they will vacation here and they will retire here. But are they going to invest their capital here? Are engineers going to want to come to the state and start innovating and creating the ideas that lead to great businesses here?"

http://www.theledger.com/article/20110220/COLUMNISTS0302/102205010?p=2&tc=pg

The economic multiplier effect of HSR would be significant for Florida!

[FayeforCure]

Ock, I have no idea where America 2050 got their 50 million visitor figure from for Central Florida.

I do know however that Orlando does get 50,000,000 visitors per:
http://www.orlandoinfo.com/research/visitors/volume.cfm

If that is the number America2050 used, and they for convenience sake said that 5% of these visitors could be using HSR, then that is how they came up with their "potential ridership"

The 5% figure has no basis, rather it is a hypthetical low percentage that was solely used to indicate that even if one considers a very small portion of Orlando visitors would be using HSR (and 5% is a very small portion), then you could easily arrive at the forecasted ridership numbers needed to make HSR feasible.

I used to be a utilization planner myself and this rough methodology makes as much sense as any other seemingly more precise method as we currently do not have any HSR situation in the US ( with potential significant tourist component) on which to base any more "accurate" prediction of ridership.

[thelakelander]

There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?

[dougskiles]

There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?

As long as our economy and politics are driven by the industries who profit the most from these subsidizies, I think the answer is 'NO'.  As we shift to more of a 'creative' ecomony then the answer might be 'YES'.

[thelakelander]

That's my problem with this Florida HSR decision by Scott. It's not a new way of thinking or approaching the issues, it's more of the same old partisan political shell game that does us more damage than good.

[mtraininjax]

That's my problem with this Florida HSR decision by Scott. It's not a new way of thinking or approaching the issues

How do you figure Lake? Did we need HSR to make Florida's economy zoom to a new level? How many HSR projects do we have in Florida? Just this one? How many ports do we have in Florida, 14? How many asked for funds to expand for Post-Panamax ships? 3 that I know of, and we have ports with jobs NOW, and we plan to have many more from expansion of the ports. I think Scott has opened his hand and he is playing with Port cards and he will be driving for more money for something that makes Florida strong, port traffic.

I voted for Scott and I know others who did with the intent that he is different with different ideas. I disagree with you that he approaches things the same way as Crist did or even Jeb Bush. I applaud is efforts and look forward to seeing him apply common sense to economics in Florida. All his opponents have 3 years to find someone to run against him, I hope between now and then, Scott is successful. We shall see.

[Ralph W]

Quote
Mr Scott could have some deeply held, high-minded policy objection to the Tampa-Orlando line. But it seems a lot more likely that he is simply following the lead of other newly elected Republican governors around the country. Ohio's John Kasich and Wisconsin's Scott Walker dramatically raised their national profiles by sticking a thumb in the eye of the Obama administration and rejecting rail money targeted for their states.

So far, Mr Scott's move seems to be earning him the same kind of pressâ€"and the same sort of credibility with the GOP's conservative base. Now some in the media are even talking about Mr Scott as a potential presidential candidate in 2012. That could be just what the governor wanted out of this.


http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2011/02/high-speed_rail_florida

If one is to believe that  Mr. Scott is truly out to benefit from his win of the governors office rather than work for the people of Florida, then the media tease of a presidential possibility  holds some water as he gets his name and face out there nationally with a highly controversial decision to turn down the feds big bucks offer. Does he have enough of his own money left to buy into the White House? I think whoever wrote that piece got that candidate date of 2012 wrong.

[spuwho]

There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?

Subsidy assumes a revenue source other than taxes. In almost all cases roads then are not subsidized, but merely funded since they perform a service to the public. (which they historically support)

Passenger rail is not 100 percent domestically accepted yet as a public service, since it has historically been a private business. Public use of the rails has been a more recent thing. Therefore the term subsidy is more apropos is this case. At the moment (except for Acela) it is primarily a mix of public/private.

Roads provide a broad set of uses that HSR cannot replicate, so while it would be simple to compare on a pure dollars per mile basis, it's a troublesome compare fraught with too many variances.

[FayeforCure]

All his opponents have 3 years to find someone to run against him, I hope between now and then, Scott is successful. We shall see.

Rick Scott was elected by less than one out of four Floridians. Less than 50% of Floridians bothered to vote, and he got the smallest victory in the history of the state of Florida ergo less than 25% of Floridians actually elected him.

All we need is 3 months to recall him once we actually get the right to recall state lawmakers like 18 other states already have.

Let's see the will of the people at work instead of very "staged" campaigns costing $75 million of our stolen money. That $75 million of his "own" money Scott used to buy himself the governorship was stolen from Medicare!!

His company was the proud recipient of the largest fine ever leveled against ANY company in the history of the US!!!

$631 million in civil penalties and damages arising from false claims the government alleged HCA submitted to Medicare

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2003/June/03_civ_386.htm

Please join our facebook page to Recall Rick Scott!! We have already doubled our membership in the first 24 hours after Scott killed HSR and continue to add thousands!!

[thelakelander]

Spuwho, i've never heard it spinned that way and I definitely don't agree with that logic. When I get in front of a computer, I'll have to respond in greater detail.

[FayeforCure]

There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?

lakelander, roads and ports are like military spending............we never question them.

Both provide economic activity that is so ingrained that we'd rather overspend on those than ever question them. Instead we like to get fixated on the cleaner, cheaper, more innovative options for economic activity..........doing everything in our power to keep the US behind other economic powers.

[spuwho]

Spuwho, i've never heard it spinned that way and I definitely don't agree with that logic. When I get in front of a computer, I'll have to respond in greater detail.

Not a problem, Lake, I am more than happy to expound further at any time.

No spin intended. Just a perspective. Yours may vary.

[thelakelander]

There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?

Subsidy assumes a revenue source other than taxes. In almost all cases roads then are not subsidized, but merely funded since they perform a service to the public. (which they historically support)

Historically and even presently, the majority of roads constructed in this country are privately funded for land development purposes.  In many cases, they are then turned over to a public entity to be maintained.  Imo, this would fit your definition of a subsidy.  For example, the roads in Riverside, Nocatee and Argyle were all initially developed with private money to stimulate profits from the increase in value of surrounding property.  In general, the public would have been fine without any of these developments.  So, we can't make a blanket statement that roads are merely funded and not subsidized because they perform a service to the public.

Passenger rail is not 100 percent domestically accepted yet as a public service, since it has historically been a private business. Public use of the rails has been a more recent thing. Therefore the term subsidy is more apropos is this case. At the moment (except for Acela) it is primarily a mix of public/private.

I'll differ here as well.  Both rail and roads have historically been used as a means by the private sector to spur income through associated land development.  Rail, roads and other infrastructure projects can be accepted as a public service or for private gain.  You really have to determine each project on its individual merit.  For example, its really debatable that rebuilding Monroe Street in front of the courthouse or constructing the Outer Beltway are really being done in the name of "public service."  In many cases, they do the public more harm than not doing anything at all.  With all of this said, the general public doesn't view any angle of an issue at a 100% level.  We're to diverse in terms of age, race, cultures, lifestyles, etc. to pigeon hole our beliefs into a one size fits all mentality, as far as infrastructure investment goes.

Roads provide a broad set of uses that HSR cannot replicate, so while it would be simple to compare on a pure dollars per mile basis, it's a troublesome compare fraught with too many variances.

Both rail and roads have their pros and cons and shouldn't be evaluated in an either/or position.  Ideally, we should be thinking and planning long term for the development of a multimodal transportation network.  Nevertheless, all projects (regardless of specific mode) should be fully vetted before making a final decision to invest in them or not.

[Ocklawaha]

There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?

lakelander, roads and ports are like military spending............we never question them.

Both provide economic activity that is so ingrained that we'd rather overspend on those than ever question them. Instead we like to get fixated on the cleaner, cheaper, more innovative options for economic activity..........doing everything in our power to keep the US behind other economic powers.

PORT CATOOSA

The Tulsa Port of Catoosa, near Tulsa, Oklahoma, (proximity map) is located at the head of navigation for the System. The waterway travels 445 miles along the Verdigris River, the Arkansas River, the Arkansas Post Canal and the White River before joining the Mississippi at Montgomery Point. New Orleans is 600 miles south.

There are 18 locks and dams on the McClellan-Kerr. Each of these dams creates a reservoir, or what is called a navigation pool. The system of locks and dams can be likened to a 440-mile staircase of water.

In an average year, 13-million tons of cargo is transported on the McClellan-Kerr by barge. This ranges from sand and rock to fertilizer, wheat, raw steel, refined petroleum products and sophisticated petrochemical processing equipment.

Why is so much cargo moved by water? One reason is cost. It is estimated that large quantities of commodity cargo can be moved by barge for one-third the cost of railroad and one-fifth the cost of truck.
   
The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers built the system 36 years ago, at a cost of $1.3 billion, and still operates and maintains it. Issues regarding safety, however, are the jurisdiction of the U.S. Coast Guard.

I strongly disagree with the roads don't get a subsidy and rail does argument...Then what does one say about airlines? That ain't cotton candy they land on, nor is it the Big Rock Candy Mountain they taxi to to board passengers... Oh and if there aren't any passengers, no problem, we pay for those seats anyway! Roads? Hey I got into this surface transportation business via TAMIAMI TRAILWAYS BUS SYSTEM, and in that era of my life I have to say it was the most interesting job I ever had. But let me ask you when was the last time you saw an Express Trailways, First Class Trailways or Endeavor Trailways crew out patching the potholes in I-95? How about Greyhound? Yellow Freight? Covenant Transport? or UPS? Installing the real time information signage? How about PAYING FOR the real time information signage? Waterways? Yeah the Ingram Barge, Mississippi Valley Barge, and Delta Queen crews do a stellar job of keeping the Arkansas River dredged and lit all the way to the Port of Catoosa (Tulsa), OKLAHOMA!

Instead we like to get fixated on the cleaner, cheaper, more innovative options for economic activity..........doing everything in our power to keep the US behind other economic powers.

Faye, if you are thinking of our poor railroads being behind the other economic powers let me put your mind at ease. The other economic powers would KILL to have our railroads which are by far the NUMBER ONE economic engine, freight carriers, and transportation system in the world! Nobody, not France, not Germany, not China or Japan, NOBODY even comes close.

So why don't we lead the world in Passenger Rail Services? Because with such upside down operating ratios from years of mandated EMPTY trains, and mounting passenger losses, when the railroads asked for relief the crazy politicians decided they "Just didn't know how to run trains..." We ended up with a disastrous Federal Take-Over of such a thin skeletal system that it was a joke before it ever turned a wheel. Nothing was planned to be successful and there were no projections of glee, EVERYTHING was planned on the same crumbling passenger network albeit without enough trains to ever possibly make it a success. Amtrak reeked of a "fix," rigged by the then ruling Republicans, Management of most of the big railroads, (Penn Central, Southern Pacific, Missouri Pacific, Union Pacific, etc., the apparent exceptions being SCL {CSX} SOUTHERN, SANTA FE) and a group of really dumb Democrats that believed this was an exercise in "Making the Trains Worth Riding Again." Penn Central executives went screaming through the offices "WE DID IT! WE'VE SHOT THE PASSENGER TRAIN!"

Enter the fuel crisis, the oil embargo, the misery index, Sierra Club, National Association of Rail Passengers, and a bunch of other odd bedfellows and suddenly Amtrak started to have some cheerleaders that were saying FIX IT, and RUN IT RIGHT! The damage was horrific, we had gone from around 25,000 pieces of passenger equipment to 4,000 our route miles were now a mere fraction, entire routes were even torn up, since it was basically seized from the railroads they didn't give a thought to sparing a route that might have some future passenger use. To prevent the problem from being shoved back at them (a mandated loss) the railroads even refined the art of abandonment in piecemeal fashion. The mainline through Gainesville is no more, but it still goes into the north side of town, and out to Alachua, where it crossed a branchline to Starke, where that meets a mainline to Baldwin, which connects for Jacksonville! FREIGHT DOESN'T COMPLAIN!

PLASSER-AMERICAN

GE-CHINA

If we EVER fix our AMTRAK MISTAKES, High Speed Rail will take care of itself in our country, but going around Amtrak and somehow trying to jump over the next few phases probably guarantees that HSR will remain a novelty in our country. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is HERE watching us move freight like no one else... Those new super Locomotives in China? GENERAL ELECTRICS from ERIE PA., those new machines building that HSR line over the GOBI? PLASSER-AMERICAN. So while we still can't ride from Jacksonville to Miami in 7 hours (like we could in 1958!) we CAN haul more cargo, more places, faster, cheaper, better, then anyone else in the world.

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

There has been much talk about what happens if Florida's HSR fails. Exactly how much money would someone be on the hook for? After all, this thing is cheaper per mile than projects like the Outer Beltway. Any chance we start asking the same questions about publicly subsidized road and port related projects?

lakelander, roads and ports are like military spending............we never question them.

Both provide economic activity that is so ingrained that we'd rather overspend on those than ever question them. Instead we like to get fixated on the cleaner, cheaper, more innovative options for economic activity..........doing everything in our power to keep the US behind other economic powers.

PORT CATOOSA

The Tulsa Port of Catoosa, near Tulsa, Oklahoma, (proximity map) is located at the head of navigation for the System. The waterway travels 445 miles along the Verdigris River, the Arkansas River, the Arkansas Post Canal and the White River before joining the Mississippi at Montgomery Point. New Orleans is 600 miles south.

There are 18 locks and dams on the McClellan-Kerr. Each of these dams creates a reservoir, or what is called a navigation pool. The system of locks and dams can be likened to a 440-mile staircase of water.

In an average year, 13-million tons of cargo is transported on the McClellan-Kerr by barge. This ranges from sand and rock to fertilizer, wheat, raw steel, refined petroleum products and sophisticated petrochemical processing equipment.

Why is so much cargo moved by water? One reason is cost. It is estimated that large quantities of commodity cargo can be moved by barge for one-third the cost of railroad and one-fifth the cost of truck.
   
The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers built the system 36 years ago, at a cost of $1.3 billion, and still operates and maintains it. Issues regarding safety, however, are the jurisdiction of the U.S. Coast Guard.

I strongly disagree with the roads don't get a subsidy and rail does argument...Then what does one say about airlines? That ain't cotton candy they land on, nor is it the Big Rock Candy Mountain they taxi to to board passengers... Oh and if there aren't any passengers, no problem, we pay for those seats anyway! Roads? Hey I got into this surface transportation business via TAMIAMI TRAILWAYS BUS SYSTEM, and in that era of my life I have to say it was the most interesting job I ever had. But let me ask you when was the last time you saw an Express Trailways, First Class Trailways or Endeavor Trailways crew out patching the potholes in I-95? How about Greyhound? Yellow Freight? Covenant Transport? or UPS? Installing the real time information signage? How about PAYING FOR the real time information signage? Waterways? Yeah the Ingram Barge, Mississippi Valley Barge, and Delta Queen crews do a stellar job of keeping the Arkansas River dredged and lit all the way to the Port of Catoosa (Tulsa), OKLAHOMA!

Instead we like to get fixated on the cleaner, cheaper, more innovative options for economic activity..........doing everything in our power to keep the US behind other economic powers.

Faye, if you are thinking of our poor railroads being behind the other economic powers let me put your mind at ease. The other economic powers would KILL to have our railroads which are by far the NUMBER ONE economic engine, freight carriers, and transportation system in the world! Nobody, not France, not Germany, not China or Japan, NOBODY even comes close.

So why don't we lead the world in Passenger Rail Services? Because with such upside down operating ratios from years of mandated EMPTY trains, and mounting passenger losses, when the railroads asked for relief the crazy politicians decided they "Just didn't know how to run trains..." We ended up with a disastrous Federal Take-Over of such a thin skeletal system that it was a joke before it ever turned a wheel. Nothing was planned to be successful and there were no projections of glee, EVERYTHING was planned on the same crumbling passenger network albeit without enough trains to ever possibly make it a success. Amtrak reeked of a "fix," rigged by the then ruling Republicans, Management of most of the big railroads, (Penn Central, Southern Pacific, Missouri Pacific, Union Pacific, etc., the apparent exceptions being SCL {CSX} SOUTHERN, SANTA FE) and a group of really dumb Democrats that believed this was an exercise in "Making the Trains Worth Riding Again." Penn Central executives went screaming through the offices "WE DID IT! WE'VE SHOT THE PASSENGER TRAIN!"

Enter the fuel crisis, the oil embargo, the misery index, Sierra Club, National Association of Rail Passengers, and a bunch of other odd bedfellows and suddenly Amtrak started to have some cheerleaders that were saying FIX IT, and RUN IT RIGHT! The damage was horrific, we had gone from around 25,000 pieces of passenger equipment to 4,000 our route miles were now a mere fraction, entire routes were even torn up, since it was basically seized from the railroads they didn't give a thought to sparing a route that might have some future passenger use. To prevent the problem from being shoved back at them (a mandated loss) the railroads even refined the art of abandonment in piecemeal fashion. The mainline through Gainesville is no more, but it still goes into the north side of town, and out to Alachua, where it crossed a branchline to Starke, where that meets a mainline to Baldwin, which connects for Jacksonville! FREIGHT DOESN'T COMPLAIN!

PLASSER-AMERICAN

GE-CHINA

If we EVER fix our AMTRAK MISTAKES, High Speed Rail will take care of itself in our country, but going around Amtrak and somehow trying to jump over the next few phases probably guarantees that HSR will remain a novelty in our country. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is HERE watching us move freight like no one else... Those new super Locomotives in China? GENERAL ELECTRICS from ERIE PA., those new machines building that HSR line over the GOBI? PLASSER-AMERICAN. So while we still can't ride from Jacksonville to Miami in 7 hours (like we could in 1958!) we CAN haul more cargo, more places, faster, cheaper, better, then anyone else in the world.

OCKLAWAHA

Completely agree with you here Ock!

There has been some talk about circumventing Scott, by letting Amtrak receive the federal monies for HSR in Florida, and for them to fashion the public-private partnership. If successful it would improve Amtrak's standing and its funding for our traditional passenger lines, plus Republicans would successfully be able to point to a public-private partnership that brought us our first true HSR in the US.