US Senator Bill Nelson Spearheads the Push to Save Florida HSR

[thelakelander]

They would not have too. Sunrail will run from Kissimmee to Deland.  Any Orlando resident wanting to connect to HSR would head to their local Sunrail station and take that train to the intermodal terminal. By the way, I spent some time walking around in Winter Park today. Anyone who thinks people would have to rent a car once they got to Orlando because of a lack of mass transit, should reevaluate that position.  While Sunrail doesn't hit every spot of Metro Orlando (no fixed rail system does this in any American city), it does connect a ton of urban walkable nodes.  Anyway, here are a few images I snapped today around Winter Park's Sunrail station site.

[Ocklawaha]

That just makes me want to smack Mica... Anyways that plan is absolutely stupid, John Mica needs to forget about re-election after some stupid move like that. You DON'T need a HSR to Disney, if they want that then have them expand their Monorail, gosh the nerve. I think of the two cities, Orlando has their end of the HSR messed up the most.

Why not link the Sunrail with the HSR...? Freaking retards.

Uh Mattius, the current FLORIDA HIGH SPEED RAIL PLAN, goes from the Orlando Airport, to International Drive (tourist traps), to DISNEY, then to a college, and Lakeland, and finally a Rosa Parks like bus stop in Tampa. What Mica is suggesting is that the Disney-College-Lakeland-Tampa Bus Stop segment doesn't need to be built now. Frankly, NONE OF THIS ROUTE should be built, at least not as HIGH SPEED RAIL.

Mica is not the one that proposes this thing from OIA to DISNEY, this harebrained handout of public funds to Disney and Sea World, has been the plan all along... Just one more reason why this plan stinks to high heavens.

OCKLAWAHA

[Mattius92]

Disney is okay on a Tampa-Orlando plan, but just a Disney-OIA route is a failure waiting to happen.

I do agree with Ock, about that stations and the route, the Tampa end needs to be more in the urban core, Lakeland is okay, OIA is okay, but from OIA it needs to go more into downtown Orlando.

The other stations are iffy, except maybe Disney because thats a major attraction.

[thelakelander]

I think the points you raised could be worked on without pulling the plug on the $2.4 bilion.  If you want to improve the I-4 corridor alignment, all you need to do is use the HSR track infrastructure for express and local service and add more stations for a local option. Basically, just convert it into a hybrid style of system to appeal to a larger segment of Central Florida's population.  Btw, Legoland was planning to have a shuttle tie their Winter Haven theme park into the USF Poly station site.

[Mattius92]

I think the points you raised could be worked on without pulling the plug on the $2.4 bilion.  If you want to improve the I-4 corridor alignment, all you need to do is use the HSR track infrastructure for express and local service and add more stations for a local option. Basically, just convert it into a hybrid style of system to appeal to a larger segment of Central Florida's population.  Btw, Legoland was planning to have a shuttle tie their Winter Haven theme park into the USF Poly station site.

I agree and thats good news if Legoland ties in, because that will really boost ridership on the HSR. Even if its kept the same, that tie in would be tremendous.

[FayeforCure]

I think the points you raised could be worked on without pulling the plug on the $2.4 bilion.  If you want to improve the I-4 corridor alignment, all you need to do is use the HSR track infrastructure for express and local service and add more stations for a local option. Basically, just convert it into a hybrid style of system to appeal to a larger segment of Central Florida's population.  Btw, Legoland was planning to have a shuttle tie their Winter Haven theme park into the USF Poly station site.

So true. In Europe the same track is used for both express and local service. I can take the "non-stop" out of Amsterdam, or what they call the stop train that would take twice as long to get to where I'm going.

BTW, thanks for those beautiful shots of pedestrians in Winter Park!! What a vibrant beautiful town.......used to be my favorite place for summer jazz concerts in the park when I lived in Kissimmee for 6 years.

[rainfrog]

I don't know where I fit in statistics or studies, but if I lived in Orlando and wanted to catch the HSR, I wouldn't drive to the airport and put up with parking hassles. I'd take the bus. Assuming I lived at a random point in the metro area, chances are I'd be closer to a bus than a SunRail stop anyway. Just an anecdote. People seem too reluctant to mention LYNX.

Even though I think in terms of a resident, I also think the tourist pandering makes sense. Continuous stream of carless tourists coming off of planes with very certain destinations? I'd tap that, too. Orlandoans going to Tampa + willing to part with their cars?   Would need a few drinks...

[mtraininjax]

Glad to see everyone is so concerned about Orlando, Kissimmee, Deland and Tampa. I am sure they return the favor to those of us in Jacksonville.

[Mattius92]

Glad to see everyone is so concerned about Orlando, Kissimmee, Deland and Tampa. I am sure they return the favor to those of us in Jacksonville.

It does matter, their successes and failures will hopefully be seen by our city leaders, and maybe they will actually get a good idea. If Jacksonville had anything like the SunRail I would feel so much better about my city. I was born and raised in Jacksonville, but when it boils down, I am a Floridian at heart.

I do agree that they probably don't give a damn about Jacksonville, thats because is that quite northern (Florida) city that most people outside of Florida probably have only heard about once or twice in their life.

[Ocklawaha]

I don't know where I fit in statistics or studies, but if I lived in Orlando and wanted to catch the HSR, I wouldn't drive to the airport and put up with parking hassles. I'd take the bus. Assuming I lived at a random point in the metro area, chances are I'd be closer to a bus than a SunRail stop anyway. Just an anecdote. People seem too reluctant to mention LYNX.

Even though I think in terms of a resident, I also think the tourist pandering makes sense. Continuous stream of carless tourists coming off of planes with very certain destinations? I'd tap that, too. Orlandoans going to Tampa + willing to part with their cars?  Would need a few drinks...

That's a major portion of the problem with the current plan and why it needs to be dumped in favor of a complete realignment. NOBODY IN ORLANDO, ASSUMING THEY LIVE WITHIN 30 MINUTES OF THE AIRPORT IS GOING TO GO TO THE AIRPORT TO CATCH A TRAIN. ...And all those car-less tourists? They number just about ZERO. Everybody coming in at those gates has a car rental, relative, bus ticket or more then likely a complete package and the motor coaches are sitting outside the door. NONE of them will be reading that tour brochure in ADELAIDE or RIO or HAMBURG and thinking to themselves, "Wow, Florida has this really cool 80 mile train, I wonder if we can skip the tour bus and just ride back and forth for two weeks?"  IT AIN'T GONNA FLY WILBUR.

I think the points you raised could be worked on without pulling the plug on the $2.4 bilion.  If you want to improve the I-4 corridor alignment, all you need to do is use the HSR track infrastructure for express and local service and add more stations for a local option. Basically, just convert it into a hybrid style of system to appeal to a larger segment of Central Florida's population.  Btw, Legoland was planning to have a shuttle tie their Winter Haven theme park into the USF Poly station site.

I agree in principal with what your saying Lake, BUT, the line to the airport would need to be severed out near Sand Lake Road, and from there into SANFORD, it would follow the CSX alignment. Likewise in Hillsboroough it needs to leave the freeway either at POLK PARKWAY and I-4 at Plant City, or between 38th and 50th and I-4 in Tampa - contrary to what has been reported here "there was no way to make the turn into Union Station from I-4," either of these would pick up the CSX at the correct angles within a couple of city blocks. I dare say moving a suburban mini-storage, uniform service, and granite monument company would be cheaper then blowing a hole across Morgan, Marion, Florida, Franklin, Tampa and Ashley Streets near downtown Tampa.

So true. In Europe the same track is used for both express and local service. I can take the "non-stop" out of Amsterdam, or what they call the stop train that would take twice as long to get to where I'm going.

...And in some cases the same track is used for freight and passenger services, something that worked with old school technology from 1940-71 in the Northeast and Chicago area's with passenger trains that regularly topped out well above 100 mph.

The best case would be to get the railroad off the middle of the interstate, if for no other reason then it misses most of the population between Orlando and Tampa. Thus another false claim "It will help prevent SPRAWL!" Not on the I-4 alignment it won't, it will force sprawl, as every community located some miles to the south vies to push itself to the tracks. Local and Express trains on the same track is a no brainer.

OCKLAWAHA

[dougskiles]

When you talk about local and express trains on the same track, are you talking about the HSR as the express?  That is not what I encountered in Spain.  Their HSR, AVE, ran on a separate track.  They did have 'express' trains on the regular track (not HSR) but they were 'express' because they didn't stop at as many local stations.

Alta Velocidad Española (AVE) is a service of high-speed trains operating at speeds of up to 300 km/h (186 mph) on dedicated track in Spain. The name is literally translated from Spanish as "Spanish High Speed", but also a play on the word ave, meaning "bird".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVE

[thelakelander]

In the US, the Acela is a form of HSR rail.  The infrastructure it runs on also carries freight, regular amtrak intercity trains and commuter rail.  There is no reason, we can't do that here in Florida, if desired.

The Northeast Corridor consists of tracks between Boston, Springfield, Massachusetts, New York City and Washington D.C. with multiple trains per day.

The Atlantic City Express Service is a train to/from Atlantic City on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. The Cardinal is a second train to/from Chicago through Washington D.C. along the Northeast Corridor on Wednesdays, Fridays, and Sundays. Both the Atlantic City Express Service and the Cardinal run three days a week. Amtrak accounts for about 14% of all intercity trips between Northeast Corridor cities and its branches. The rest of these intercity trips are taken by airline, automobile, or coach.[2]

Amtrak and other long-distance trains serving Northeast Corridor stations:

Acela Express - high-speed rail from Boston to Washington.
Adirondack- to/from Montreal along the Empire Corridor.
New Jersey Transit Atlantic City Express Service- to/from Frankford Junction on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. Timing varies by day of the week.
Capitol Limited (Amtrak train) - to/from Chicago and Washington D.C..
Cardinal - to/from Chicago through Washington D.C. along the Northeast Corridor on Wednesdays, Fridays, and Sundays. Timing varies by day of the week.
Carolinian - to/from Charlotte, North Carolina.
Crescent - to/from New Orleans.
Empire Service- local service to/from Niagara Falls along the Empire Corridor. Most trains terminate at and start from Albany, with two trains continuing to/from Niagara Falls. On the westbound journey to Niagara Falls, there are two trains daily. On the eastbound journey, there is one daily train, and the timing of the second train varies by day of the week.
Ethan Allen Express- to/from Rutland along the Empire Corridor, timing varies by day of the week.
Keystone Service - local service along the Northeast Corridor to Philadelphia, and along the Keystone Corridor to/from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Timings vary by day of the week in each direction, and some trains terminate at and start from Philadelphia.
Lake Shore Limited- to/from Chicago along the Northeast Corridor in Boston, and Empire Corridor between Depew, New York and New York City.
Maple Leaf- to/from Toronto along the Empire Corridor.
New Haven-Springfield Shuttle from New Haven to Springfield, Massachusetts, through the New Haven-Springfield Line.
Northeast Regional - local service along the Northeast Corridor, from Boston, Massachusetts or Springfield, Massachusetts through the New Haven-Springfield Line, and New York City to Washington D.C., Richmond, Virginia, Newport News, Virginia, and Lynchburg, Virginia. Most trains run from Boston, Massachusetts or Springfield, Massachusetts through the New Haven-Springfield Line, and New York City to Washington D.C.. There are multiple trains daily to and from Richmond, Virginia and Newport News, Virginia, but some trains terminate at and start from Richmond, Virginia, while others head to and from Newport News, Virginia. One is a daily train, but for other trains, the timings will vary by day of the week. There is one daily train to Lynchburg, Virginia, and its timing varies by day of the week.
Palmetto - to/from Savannah, Georgia.
Pennsylvanian - to/from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania along the Northeast Corridor and Keystone Corridor.
Silver Meteor - to/from Miami.
Silver Star - to/from Miami.
Vermonter - to/from St. Albans, Vermont through the Northeast Corridor and New Haven-Springfield Line.

Commuter rail

In addition to Amtrak, several commuter rail agencies operate passenger service using the Northeast Corridor tracks.

MARC Penn Line - Washington to Perryville, Maryland on Mondays to Fridays only.
MBTA Providence/Stoughton Line from T. F. Green Airport in Warwick, Rhode Island, to Boston.
MBTA Franklin Line from Hyde Park, to Boston.
MBTA Needham Line from Ruggles, to Boston.
MBTA Framingham/Worcester Line from Back Bay Station, to Boston.
Metro-North Railroad New Haven Line from New Rochelle, New York, to New Haven.
Metro-North Railroad Danbury Branch, from Norwalk to Danbury, Connecticut.
Metro-North Railroad New Canaan Branch, from Stamford to New Canaan, Connecticut.
Metro-North Railroad Waterbury Branch, from Stratford to Waterbury, Connecticut.
New Jersey Transit Atlantic City Line in Philadelphia (from 30th Street Station to Frankford Junction).
New Jersey Transit Northeast Corridor Line from Trenton to New York.
New Jersey Transit North Jersey Coast Line from Rahway to New York.
New Jersey Transit Morristown Line from Secaucus Junction to New York.
New Jersey Transit Gladstone Branch from Secaucus Junction to New York.
New Jersey Transit Montclair-Boonton Line from Secaucus Junction to New York.
SEPTA Airport Line in Philadelphia (from 30th Street Station to Phil Interlocking in Southwest Philadelphia).
SEPTA Wilmington/Newark Line from Newark, Delaware, to Philadelphia.
SEPTA Media/Elwyn Line in Philadelphia (from 30th Street Station to Arsenal Junction in University City).
SEPTA Trenton Line from Philadelphia to Trenton, New Jersey.
SEPTA Chestnut Hill West Line in Philadelphia (from 30th Street Station to North Philadelphia Station).
Shore Line East from Stamford, Connecticut, to New London, Connecticut.

Freight service

Freight service is provided on the Northeast Corridor by trackage rights. The Norfolk Southern Railway operates over the line south of Philadelphia, and CSX Transportation has rights from New York to New Haven and in Massachusetts. CSX also has rights between Landover, MD and Bowie, MD, where the CSX Landover Subdivision and Pope's Creek Subdivision, respectively, diverge from the NEC. Between Philadelphia and New York, Conrail, which formerly provided service on the whole line, still operates over the line, as a local switching and terminal company for both CSX and Norfolk Southern. (See Conrail Shared Assets Operations.) The Providence and Worcester Railroad operates local freight service from New Haven into Rhode Island and has incidental trackage rights from New Haven to New York.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Corridor

[thelakelander]

I think the points you raised could be worked on without pulling the plug on the $2.4 bilion.  If you want to improve the I-4 corridor alignment, all you need to do is use the HSR track infrastructure for express and local service and add more stations for a local option. Basically, just convert it into a hybrid style of system to appeal to a larger segment of Central Florida's population.  Btw, Legoland was planning to have a shuttle tie their Winter Haven theme park into the USF Poly station site.

I agree in principal with what your saying Lake, BUT, the line to the airport would need to be severed out near Sand Lake Road, and from there into SANFORD, it would follow the CSX alignment. Likewise in Hillsboroough it needs to leave the freeway either at POLK PARKWAY and I-4 at Plant City, or between 38th and 50th and I-4 in Tampa - contrary to what has been reported here "there was no way to make the turn into Union Station from I-4," either of these would pick up the CSX at the correct angles within a couple of city blocks. I dare say moving a suburban mini-storage, uniform service, and granite monument company would be cheaper then blowing a hole across Morgan, Marion, Florida, Franklin, Tampa and Ashley Streets near downtown Tampa.

These things aren't make or break (definitely not enough to send a one time $2.4 billion gift to another state with nothing in return) and modifications can be made to alleviate many of them.  For example, if you want to go to Sanford, connect to Sunrail.  In DT Tampa, if its not feasible to get HSR into Union Station, perhaps its time to look towards local transit to tie the two together.  Btw, how many Amtrak trains come into Tampa's Union Station a day?  It can't be more than 3 or 4.  If that's the case, I definitely would not advocate trashing a chance at that much cash, because it doesn't tie in directly with sleepy Union Station.

[tufsu1]

Glad to see everyone is so concerned about Orlando, Kissimmee, Deland and Tampa. I am sure they return the favor to those of us in Jacksonville.

without the first leg, there will never be a connection to Jax.

[Ocklawaha]

Glad to see everyone is so concerned about Orlando, Kissimmee, Deland and Tampa. I am sure they return the favor to those of us in Jacksonville.

without the first leg, there will never be a connection to Jax.

IF IT IS BUILT, according to the current scheme (it's quite short of a plan) there is no reason to EVER expect it to be more then an OIA-DISNEY-TAMPA parking shuttle. EVER!

I agree with Lake, and I believe FAYE, FSUJAX, STEPHENDARE, and YOURSELF would all agree that if they'd let us remold it THROUGH the corridor, get it into the traditional terminals, and otherwise have all of the trappings of VERY HIGH SPEED RAIL, we'd all be dancing in the streets... Justifiably awaiting OUR train.

OCKLAWAHA