Who Loves JEA?

[BridgeTroll]

      OR... The deposits are required BECAUSE of the steady rise in theft and failure to pay what you use.  The way this owner see's it... JEA is protecting our community asset and investment from thieves and fraudsters.

Chris... is the amount really arbitrary... or is it clearly defined when you open an account?  You are exaggerating again Chris.

[BridgeTroll]

Bridge, I just want to know one thing (that I asked earlier and got no legitimate answer to.)

What is your stake in JEA? Why are you so ardently defending them despite overwhelming of malfeasance? I know it's a bit of a crass question, but I can't think of anyone in Jacksonville that would defend JEA's practices besides bondholders, the board, employees, and contractors making a buck off of JEA.

What camp are you in?

Good question RL.  I am none of the above.  I am simply a customer as you are.  I also am not defending JEA.  They certainly do not need my feeble efforts in that regard.  What I AM arguing against is the distortion, drama, undocumented claims, name-calling, heresay, and unfounded accusations by various posters.  For example... Look at Chris's post critically and without emotion...

We'll send you a bill for some arbitrary amount that we feel like you might have used. If you can't pay it on time, we'll arbitrarily add another $700-$10,000 to your bill as a deposit, due immediately. If you can't pay this new arbitrary assessment on time, we'll just turn your power and water off and your kids can just go without showers, food, heat, etc. If you turn the power back on, we'll have your ass arrested. It's one big fuck you.

How much of that rant is factual?  How much of that actually describes the vast majority of JEA customers?

[BridgeTroll]

so, weve established that the jea is holding up to 300 million dollars just in deposits, which would make the total amount of 1 million dollars of potential theft to be one third of one percent of the held deposits

We have?  Show me.

[BridgeTroll]

Your flat assessment that this is standard behavior for a public utility, is contradicted by the JEA's own auditor, who has been quoted saying the exact opposite.

Show me.

You then tried to conflate predatory lending practices with standard procedure for a not for profit.

Show me that they are in fact predatory.  Not someones opinion.

Despite the fact that every single media source in the city has covered this as a problem,

I have read the articles about people who have a problem paying their bills.  I do not doubt nor have I ever said billing mistakes do not happen.  They have happened to me.

I have personallly spoken with Brian Roche, the architect of these policies on his reasoning behind them.  I have also spoken with the current and former CEOs of the JEA on these matters, and I have argued at length with Marlene Murphy Roach, the vice president of Customer relations for the JEA.

Awesome.  Even our attorney Chris would not allow that as evidence in an argument.  perhaps you could convince those folks to join this discussion so I could ask a question.  Perhaps even a verifiable quote that we can look up.  I am not unreasonable.

is out of step with what the public, who owns it, thinks it should be run.

Luckily, I happen to qualify as a member of the public... guess that makes an owner too...

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

There have been several exaggerations and a few non-truths.  I don't know what's so difficult in understanding the tarrif structure that Stephen and Chris don't understand.  With reverting back to name calling, this is straight fact from JEA and used by other utilities when they compare their rates to ours:

Rate $5.50 Customer Charge, plus
Per Month 6.334 cent per kWh
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges
Fuel Charge As stated in the Fuel and Purchased Power Cost Recovery Charge Policy
(Sheet No. 5.0)
Environmental
Charge As stated in the Environmental charge (Sheet No. 5.1)

This is the leveraged, base rate that every subscriber pays unless they opt for TOD service.  They will install the new smart meter, if you don't already have one, and will charge you accordingly:

Rate $14.30 Customer Charge, plus
Per Month 12.136 cent per kWh during On-Peak hours
3.716 cent per kWh during Off-Peak hours
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges
Definition of
Billing Periods On-peak periods shall be defined as follows:
6 a.m.-10 a.m. - November through March, weekdays only
6 p.m.-10 p.m. - November through March, weekdays only
12 Noon-9 p.m. - April through October; weekdays only
All other periods shall be defined as Off-Peak, including weekends, New
Year's Day, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and
Christmas Day.
Fuel Charge As stated in the Fuel and Purchased Power Cost Recovery Charge Policy
(Sheet No. 5.0)
Environmental
Charge As stated in the Environmental Charge (Sheet No. 5.1)

That 3.716 isn't an advertised rate, the 6.334 is.  And to reiterate, it's the base rate, they clearly tell you in the tarrif structure that they are going to charge you more. 

I'm sorry that some of you have a hard time understanding something that seems to be fairly black and white.  With regards to the deposits, they can charge you up to 2 months of your average bill as a deposit, think of first month's and last month's payments.  They cannot exceed that amount - it's in their schedule:

Deposit Increases
JEA may review any established deposit waiver and/or may adjust the deposit requirement to a minimum amount equal to two (2) months average billed consumption at the current applicable rate, with no minimum amount, if an account shows that it has accumulated two (2) or more of the following infractions:
1. Payment returned from your bank
2. Service disconnected for non-payment.

  If your bill routinely runs $250 with charges up to $400 in the summer and they hit you with a deposit, then it can easily be in the $600-$700 dollar range.  If the stories of people randomly getting a deposit shown on their bill:

If a deposit is adjusted under the review process, JEA will provide a deposit warning notice after the first infraction. If the second infraction occurs within the stipulated time frame the deposit adjustment will appear on the subsequent bill, containing the amount of the deposit increase required and the process necessary to avoid service disconnection. The deposit increase must be paid in accordance with the due date of the monthly bill in which it appears. Contact a JEA Customer Care Consultant for more information.

, or being required to pay a deposit for 'late payments' are true, then they truly have a case against JEA's business practices. 

My thoughts have been and will continue to be that there are rarely any surprises, people just see what they want to see and ignore the rest.

These are the facts.  BT posted the link several pages back, so feel free to write me off, but the truth is the truth whether you agree to it or not.

[ChriswUfGator]

so, weve established that the jea is holding up to 300 million dollars just in deposits, which would make the total amount of 1 million dollars of potential theft to be one third of one percent of the held deposits

We have?  Show me.

Did you miss Ron Chamblin's post, or are you just saying/implying that he's a liar?

[ChriswUfGator]

There have been several exaggerations and a few non-truths.  I don't know what's so difficult in understanding the tarrif structure that Stephen and Chris don't understand.  With reverting back to name calling, this is straight fact from JEA and used by other utilities when they compare their rates to ours:

Rate $5.50 Customer Charge, plus
Per Month 6.334 cent per kWh
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges
Fuel Charge As stated in the Fuel and Purchased Power Cost Recovery Charge Policy
(Sheet No. 5.0)
Environmental
Charge As stated in the Environmental charge (Sheet No. 5.1)

This is the leveraged, base rate that every subscriber pays unless they opt for TOD service.  They will install the new smart meter, if you don't already have one, and will charge you accordingly:

Rate $14.30 Customer Charge, plus
Per Month 12.136 cent per kWh during On-Peak hours
3.716 cent per kWh during Off-Peak hours
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges
Definition of
Billing Periods On-peak periods shall be defined as follows:
6 a.m.-10 a.m. - November through March, weekdays only
6 p.m.-10 p.m. - November through March, weekdays only
12 Noon-9 p.m. - April through October; weekdays only
All other periods shall be defined as Off-Peak, including weekends, New
Year's Day, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and
Christmas Day.
Fuel Charge As stated in the Fuel and Purchased Power Cost Recovery Charge Policy
(Sheet No. 5.0)
Environmental
Charge As stated in the Environmental Charge (Sheet No. 5.1)

That 3.716 isn't an advertised rate, the 6.334 is.  And to reiterate, it's the base rate, they clearly tell you in the tarrif structure that they are going to charge you more.  

I'm sorry that some of you have a hard time understanding something that seems to be fairly black and white.  With regards to the deposits, they can charge you up to 2 months of your average bill as a deposit, think of first month's and last month's payments.  They cannot exceed that amount - it's in their schedule:

Deposit Increases
JEA may review any established deposit waiver and/or may adjust the deposit requirement to a minimum amount equal to two (2) months average billed consumption at the current applicable rate, with no minimum amount, if an account shows that it has accumulated two (2) or more of the following infractions:
1. Payment returned from your bank
2. Service disconnected for non-payment.

 If your bill routinely runs $250 with charges up to $400 in the summer and they hit you with a deposit, then it can easily be in the $600-$700 dollar range.  If the stories of people randomly getting a deposit shown on their bill:

If a deposit is adjusted under the review process, JEA will provide a deposit warning notice after the first infraction. If the second infraction occurs within the stipulated time frame the deposit adjustment will appear on the subsequent bill, containing the amount of the deposit increase required and the process necessary to avoid service disconnection. The deposit increase must be paid in accordance with the due date of the monthly bill in which it appears. Contact a JEA Customer Care Consultant for more information.

, or being required to pay a deposit for 'late payments' are true, then they truly have a case against JEA's business practices.  

My thoughts have been and will continue to be that there are rarely any surprises, people just see what they want to see and ignore the rest.

These are the facts.  BT posted the link several pages back, so feel free to write me off, but the truth is the truth whether you agree to it or not.

Nobody is arguing that they don't publish a base rate, Westsider. What our point is, and has been from the beginning, is that the base rate is so far off from what you actually pay that it's laughable. When you compare the combined rates of JEA and other utilities, JEA is the highest in the state that I've found, and they even admit (in the PDF I already posted for you) that their actual combined rate is $0.124. So this discussion of "base rate" (e.g., the rate that nobody pays, before we tack a bunch of extra crap on) is kind of irrelevant, no?

And regarding the deposits, they don't charge 2 months' worth of usage, they charge far more. That's the whole problem here. In some cases, we're talking like 4-6 months' worth of usage, not just two months.

[BridgeTroll]

so, weve established that the jea is holding up to 300 million dollars just in deposits, which would make the total amount of 1 million dollars of potential theft to be one third of one percent of the held deposits

We have?  Show me.

Did you miss Ron Chamblin's post, or are you just saying/implying that he's a liar?

I did not miss it.  In fact his post prompted me to look for what he referenced.  Unfortunately he failed to provide a link and I was unable to find what he apparently did.  I would love to look at what he found...

[ChriswUfGator]

so, weve established that the jea is holding up to 300 million dollars just in deposits, which would make the total amount of 1 million dollars of potential theft to be one third of one percent of the held deposits

We have?  Show me.

Did you miss Ron Chamblin's post, or are you just saying/implying that he's a liar?

I did not miss it.  In fact his post prompted me to look for what he referenced.  Unfortunately he failed to provide a link and I was unable to find what he apparently did.  I would love to look at what he found...

So since you noticed his post, and still implied that the deposit comment was untrue, aren't you calling him a liar?

[BridgeTroll]

Here in 2004, we see rate increases going into 11 million dollars of employee bonuses.  Thats eleven times the amount that the JEA claims was stolen.

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/121904/met_17483412.shtml

Jacksonville city leaders are less than pleased with their utility and are lashing out at JEA, which is considering its second rate increase within a few months and is giving employees $11.4 million in bonuses.

Mayor John Peyton said last week he's concerned about the timing of the bonuses, and City Councilman Art Shad is asking for an audit to show if JEA execs would've received the same bonus if they didn't split their rate increases into two parts.

One criteria for the bonus is keeping the lowest electric rates in Florida, which JEA may not have once its next increase hits in the spring. The amount of the second increase hasn't yet been determined, so it's impossible to know now if they'll still be the lowest in the state, JEA spokesman Ron Whittington said.

"Naturally, I'm concerned about the amount of the bonuses, the timing of the bonuses and the weighting of the bonuses," Peyton said.

Line employees got an average bonus of about 8 percent, while managers got an average near 20 percent.

Peyton said he looks forward to talking with JEA's board members and management. One of his first questions will be to see an analysis of bonuses at other utility companies to get a better understanding of the bonus system.

Peyton said his office has been slammed with unhappy residents. But he said there's little he can do because he doesn't control the utility. But the mayor does appoint JEA's seven board members.

Peyton's only appointment so far has been Jay Fant, "the most frugal business-minded person I know," Peyton said. Fant is an executive at First Guaranty Bank.

Peyton said his goal will be to find similar-minded people for future appointments.

"This situation certainly makes relevant the need for smart, business-minded leadership on the board," Peyton said.

Let 'em vote on it

I was one of the ones listed as Not freeking happy.  I also agree that it is probably time to appoint new board members.  I certainly did not see anyone in the article say that JEA "stole money".

[BridgeTroll]

so, weve established that the jea is holding up to 300 million dollars just in deposits, which would make the total amount of 1 million dollars of potential theft to be one third of one percent of the held deposits

We have?  Show me.

Did you miss Ron Chamblin's post, or are you just saying/implying that he's a liar?

I did not miss it.  In fact his post prompted me to look for what he referenced.  Unfortunately he failed to provide a link and I was unable to find what he apparently did.  I would love to look at what he found...

So since you noticed his post, and still implied that the deposit comment was untrue, aren't you calling him a liar?

Absolutely and unequivically not.

[BridgeTroll]

Ron clearly says in the post...

I hope I’ve interpreted the tables correctly.  I over estimated the number of customers in my earlier blog --I had estimated the deposits to be around $600,000,000 or so.  Sorry about my wild estimates.   

Perhaps we can all take a look at them.

[ChriswUfGator]

Ron clearly says in the post...

I hope I’ve interpreted the tables correctly.  I over estimated the number of customers in my earlier blog --I had estimated the deposits to be around $600,000,000 or so.  Sorry about my wild estimates.   

Perhaps we can all take a look at them.

He also said the correct figure is a shade under $300mm, didn't he? Again, is he making that up?

[BridgeTroll]

Good lord Chris... quit being so childish...

He said he hopes he interpreted correctly.  MEANING... he was not sure... HENCE a closer look by anyone interested is a good idea.

He may very well be 100% correct and I am certainly open to that.  I really do not think it is unreasonable to look at the charts and figures myself do you?

[ChriswUfGator]

Good lord Chris... quit being so childish...

He said he hopes he interpreted correctly.  MEANING... he was not sure... HENCE a closer look by anyone interested is a good idea.

He may very well be 100% correct and I am certainly open to that.  I really do not think it is unreasonable to look at the charts and figures myself do you?

I'm not being childish, just using a bit of theater to point out how absurd you're being with your questioning/doubting every statement that contradicts your viewpoint, despite multiple people saying the same thing, and despite multiple links already being posted in the thread demonstrating the same things you're doubting. You keep claiming this is all "opinion" yada yada yada, despite there already being sources in this very thread for everything that you're questioning.

It's just an argument tactic on your part, meant to discredit or question the support for every viewpoint you don't agree with, even when you already have to know the opposing view is well supported. The problem with that tactic is that it's being over-used, and we've now crossed over the tipping point into being just plain absurd. Your stance has devolved to the point of someone saying "the sky is blue" and your automatic response is "well that's just your opinion" or "prove it."

It's getting a little ridiculous...