Five Drastic Steps To Revive Downtown Jacksonville

[ChriswUfGator]

And why couldn't the Home and Patio show move to the Hyatt? I didn't realize display windows and doors, model sun rooms, and patio furniture couldn't go in a freight elevator or across a ramp either? What evidence do you have to back up your claim that patio furniture can't ride in elevators?

[ChriswUfGator]

Chris...in reading your convention center posts over a few threads, can you clarify something in your position for me? Do you hold that Jacksonville doesn't need a convention center period, or that what we currently have is more than sufficient?

I think, at most, we need maybe a medium/small sized civic hall without all of the buerocracy and string-pulling that exists with a contract-managed convention center, where the service industry downtown doesn't benefit from it and the profits are made by out of town corporations. Let the private market host the events presently at the convention center, and have a civic auditorium for the public speeches and whatnot.

The Hyatt presently has facilities sufficient to host the events scheduled for the Prime Osborn, and is about bankrupt (like the other downtown hotels) because there isn't enough revenue. Closing the Prime Osborn would provide a revenue source to the Hyatt, which would provide convention services that we don't have to pay for as taxpayers, and then we get the added benefit of being able to reopen the train station.

It's a win on multiple levels, and won't require the taxpayers to continue funding a convention facility that is in direct competition with the private Hyatt facilities that we already also paid to build, with the result that both are failing at taxpayer expense.

OK, at the risk of putting words into your mouth (and please let me know if I'm missing something), your position combined with pieces of other downtown suggestions would look something like the following - kill off the transportation center boondoggle, convert PO back to the terminal, enhance transit, and let events at the PO just figure out how to utilize other space elsewhere downtown for their functions?

Just trying to wrap my head around how the pieces fit together.

Yup, that's exactly what I believe to be the only sensible way to handle this.

And despite BridgeTroll's assertions, the one event that the Prime Osborn hosts that would be a space challenge for the Hyatt would be the boat show, and that single event by itself is hardly a legitimate reason to keep this taxpayer-supported failed convention center going with millions of dollars of operating losses paid out of our taxes.

[BridgeTroll]

And why couldn't the Home and Patio show move to the Hyatt? I didn't realize display windows and doors, model sun rooms, and patio furniture couldn't go in a freight elevator or across a ramp either? What evidence do you have to back up your claim that patio furniture can't ride in elevators?

You are well aware that I said nothing about patio furniture.  The Boat show that occurs at the Prime in an Indoors show.  It is designed for indoor convention facilities and they have noted more than once that the P.O. is inadequate for their show.  My guess is that if the Hyatt was adequate... they would have had it there long ago.  Ya think?

[BridgeTroll]

And despite BridgeTroll's assertions, the one event that the Prime Osborn hosts that would be a space challenge for the Hyatt would be the boat show,

OK.  Why dont they use the Hyatt now?

[ChriswUfGator]

And why couldn't the Home and Patio show move to the Hyatt? I didn't realize display windows and doors, model sun rooms, and patio furniture couldn't go in a freight elevator or across a ramp either? What evidence do you have to back up your claim that patio furniture can't ride in elevators?

You are well aware that I said nothing about patio furniture.  The Boat show that occurs at the Prime in an Indoors show.  It is designed for indoor convention facilities and they have noted more than once that the P.O. is inadequate for their show.  My guess is that if the Hyatt was adequate... they would have had it there long ago.  Ya think?

No I don't think, because the Hyatt doesn't have the luxury of being taxpayer-supported so that it can give away its convention space for free, like the Prime Osborn does. That's kind of the whole point here, isn't it? To eliminate the taxpayer-funded element of this and let the private market handle it.

The only event on the Prime Osborn's calendar that would be a space challenge at the Hyatt is the boat show, and that one event is not a justification for continuing to fund this failed convention center. The operating losses, maintenance, upfront payments on management contracts, all of that comes out of tax revenues, and all of that could be outright eliminated and picked up by the private sector, which would also allow us to convert the terminal back into a terminal.

[BridgeTroll]

The operating losses, maintenance, upfront payments on management contracts, all of that comes out of tax revenues, and all of that could be outright eliminated and picked up by the private sector, which would also allow us to convert the terminal back into a terminal.

This sounds like the same argument made by those who oppose rail...

[ChriswUfGator]

And despite BridgeTroll's assertions, the one event that the Prime Osborn hosts that would be a space challenge for the Hyatt would be the boat show,

OK.  Why dont they use the Hyatt now?

Because the Hyatt can't afford to give its space away for free at taxpayer expense, like the Prime Osborn does. This is kind of the whole problem isn't it, how is private business supposed to compete with a taxpayer-funded facility that literally gives the space away for free to any event that will bring 200 people? How can you compete with free? Should we place private business in the position of having to compete against free, that's only free because it's taxpayer supported? The whole thing's a mess.

But to answer your question, the only reason the Prime Osborn has anything at all in it is because it's literally given away free with the City picking up the tab, to any event that brings in 200 overnight visitors.

[ChriswUfGator]

The operating losses, maintenance, upfront payments on management contracts, all of that comes out of tax revenues, and all of that could be outright eliminated and picked up by the private sector, which would also allow us to convert the terminal back into a terminal.

This sounds like the same argument made by those who oppose rail...

Rail has benefits. Unlike this convention center. I support rail.

Maybe someone could explain to me how I can ride the convention center to work?

[BridgeTroll]

And despite BridgeTroll's assertions, the one event that the Prime Osborn hosts that would be a space challenge for the Hyatt would be the boat show,

OK.  Why dont they use the Hyatt now?

Because the Hyatt can't afford to give its space away for free at taxpayer expense, like the Prime Osborn does. This is kind of the whole problem isn't it, how is private business supposed to compete with a taxpayer-funded facility that literally gives the space away for free to any event that will bring 200 people? How can you compete with free? Should we place private business in the position of having to compete against free, that's only free because it's taxpayer supported? The whole thing's a mess.

But to answer your question, the only reason the Prime Osborn has anything at all in it is because it's literally given away free with the City picking up the tab, to any event that brings in 200 overnight visitors.

Again... do we have any verifiable attendance figures?  How about what the city charges per event versus what the Hyatt charges?  Chris is saying we are giving this away free and Hyatt cannot compete... but we really have no numbers. 

Chris... do you have links or number so we can talk apples to apples?

[fieldafm]

Because the Hyatt can't afford to give its space away for free at taxpayer expense, like the Prime Osborn does.

With all due respect... you should stop arguing right now and start formulating more of your opinions from conversations with those in the business.

You are so far off.  The space/cost factor is a major problem at the CC.  It's too expensive for the limited space it has.  You have to realize a certain cost per square foot to make a mid-size convention worthwhile/profitable.  If you can't squeeze out certain margins, its not worth the time and effort to put an event on in certain venues.  The Prime Osborne simply cannot compete in that arena in its present form.

[thelakelander]

Doesn't matter to me.  My focus in this debate is to suggest that a well run, well placed convention center, featuring a mix of uses on site, can be a part of an organic urban environment.  I'll leave the merits and inner workings of the industry on a national level to you guys.

You know, maybe you're right.

So if these are the elements of success, then why don't we build a gigantic life-sized recreation of a huge Muslim temple downtown as well? It works out pretty damn well for Mecca, you know they get like 2 million visitors a year from all over the world! So if we just build the building and establish connectivity between it and other things, then that's all it takes to guarantee success, right? What works in Mecca must work here, as long as it's properly clustered, right?

All these other factors, like the little problem that we're just trying to copy/mimic things that work in other cities for reasons that don't exist or don't carry over here, or the fact that this will be our 3rd or 4th failed convention center, just don't matter, right? So if we build Mecca downtown and cluster it with other things, then we're guaranteed to have 2 million visitors a year? Sweet!

Well if we have a large Muslim population already downtown, maybe we should build a Temple.

You're reaching on that one, since I've already stated a ton of times that we already have events that we're not properly utilizing.  So, like it or not, we're already in the game.  So let's stop reaching and stick with te reality of what we're already playing with.

Lake, I've met you many times in real life, you're a heck of a lot smarter than this...

You're railing off hot air at this point.  You're claiming things I've never stated and attempting to shoot down an entire industry and all I'm saying is even a well managed, well run convention center hosting the events we already have, can help in the effort to create an 24/7 downtown environment.  This is exactly the same argument for relocating Amtrak back downtown and kicking the CC out of the terminal to allow for a more compact transportation hub.  You may not agree with me using a convention center in this debate about the impact of connectivity and clustering compact uses to promote urban synergy but you can't prove that it doesn't work.  Regardless of the use, if you connect it with complementing uses in a compact setting, you can spur complementing activity.  Give me your uranium mine and I'll show you how to form an industrial district.

I'm not inventing arguments or blowing hot air, Lake, I'm just questioning what exactly would make this work (the 3rd or 4th go around, this time) when there is no viable market here. You do acknowledge that the convention business we have at the existing center is rather paltry and doesn't properly utilize or support that facility, correct? So then I'm not following you on how that would justify the construction of a bigger one?

Before saying anything, how did we respond to connectivity and clustering with the 1st and 2nd tries?

At this point, we have 21 events scheduled at the Prime Osborn that we won't get much economic benefit in DT from because of its complete isolation.  Those 21 events would suggest that some type of market is here, so how can we best benefit and nuture that existing market?

In addition, it's generally accepted that the convention center needs to go to make room for a viable compact transportation center.  So the option of nuturing that market in the existing facility means it will be at the expense of having a viable transportation center.  

At the end of the day, your gist is really "build it and they will come" that's what this all boils down to. We both know the demand isn't here for it. And that just doesn't work. You can't go *poof* and magically create business demand and a viable market just by constructing a building. Because that's not how the convention business, or really ANY business for that matter, works. And I think that's where we disagree on this issue.

I think its proven without a doubt that there is a small market here.  That's not even worth debating since there are 21 scheduled events this year.  Instead, we should be focusing on how can we utilize our existing markets/assets in a manner that promotes the vision of a vibrant downtown community.

Source: http://www.jaxevents.com/primeosborn.php

So I would pose to you a series of questions;

1: Do you believe the convention business we have now appropriately supports or utilizes our existing facility?

I think our existing facility is an outdated isolated place that needs to be converted back into a transportation center.  Since a viable transportation center is clearly a larger benefit, that should be priority one.  However, to move forward on that priority we need to address the convention center issue.  Considering the possibility of a public/private partnership and having an available piece of property in hand that is adjacent to our subsidized Hyatt, Bay Street and Landing (all complementing elements the current location lacks), it makes all the sense in the world to look into placing a new facility on that site.

2: Do we have the demand to justify the continued existence of the present facility?

Since my number one priority is removing the convention center to make way for a transportation center, I have to ask myself if its worth investing in a new exhibition hall or letting our larger venues move elsewhere?  Given the economic impact of a connected, clustered walkable setting, I believe its worth it to build a new exhibition hall as a part of the mixed use development in the core of the city.  I really would like to see all the people attending these 21 events (even if each event only averaged 500) walking pass the front door of downtown bars, retailers and restaurants to get to that facility.

3: Where is the demand to justify the construction of a larger facility, when we can't fill the one we have?

These three questions are eerily similar and so will my answers. Priority 1 (transportation center) changes the question to keep/better benefit from existing market or abandon it and lose most of those 21 events.  I prefer to develop an affordable solution to keep them, yet relocate them to an environment that better supports and works with our existing assets.

4: Why didn't the former convention center in the original Memorial Coliseum work out? (After all, it was quite large, and connected by expressway to hotel space.)

Don't care.  That has nothing to do with the immediate issue at hand, which is to benefit from connectivity and clustering of existing assets or not.  Btw, "connected to hotel by expressway" is not pedestrian connectivity, which really applies to an urban environment.  Without pedestrian connectivity, you can't have a vibrant urban environment.

5: Why didn't the Jacksonville Beach Convention Center work?

(After all, it was also quite large, and near to supporting hotel space.)

Don't care.  That has nothing to do with the immediate issue at hand, which is to benefit from connecivity and clustering of existing assets or not.  This applies not only to the convention center but the transportation center as well.

6: Why DID the original private model of convention hosting by private hotels work?

Don't care.  That has nothing to do with the immediate issue at hand, which is to benefit from connectivity and clustering of existing assets or not.  If you want to advocate restructuring how the industry works, feel free.  That's not my argument.  What ever you all decide on that, just make sure the publicly or privately funded solution is developed in a compact pedestrian friendly setting that allows the use to create synergy with the surrounding walkable uses.

7: What happened to our number of convention visitors (originally 200k-250k) when we took that business from the private hotels by building a series of public convention centers?

Don't care.  See last my last three answers.  If you're advocating restructuring the business, see my reply to question 6.

8: Is this an abnormal result when government gets into private business?

Don't care.  See last my last four answers.  If you're advocating restructuring the business, see my reply to question 6.

9: Is there any event at the current convention center that couldn't be hosted by a large private hotel with convention rooms, like the Hyatt?

Yes, the Hyatt is not a large facility. Both the state's Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and the State Cheer & Dance Championships left the Prime Osborn due to space constraints.  The Fire-Rescue event needed more than 100,000 square feet to clear exhibits from the lobby area.  Before they bolted, they were using 117,300 sf at the PO.  All of the Hyatt's facilities combined are 110,000sf and the largest column free space is a little over 20k.  In other words, the Hyatt as a premier convention facility in the country's 12th largest city equals peanuts.

Two other events that may outgrow the Prime Osborn in upcoming years include the Car & Truck Show and Spring Home & Patio Show.  Since the Hyatt is a much smaller space, I doubt they could consider shrinking their revenue stream down by squeezing into it as opposed of just going some place large enough to accommodate their needs.

source: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html

As you can see, we're having two different converstations, which makes for an illogical debate.  You're focus appears to be on the merits of the industry as a whole and what needs to be done to allow it to florish, in your opinion.  I'm not talking about convention center industry merits or whether it should be public or private.  Hell, Hyatt could build their own privately funded box for all I care (I wouldn't complain).  I'm talking about whatever you do, it needs to done in a "walkable" (since you through an expressway into one of your replies) environment that contains a compact setting of complementing uses.

[ChriswUfGator]

Because the Hyatt can't afford to give its space away for free at taxpayer expense, like the Prime Osborn does.

With all due respect... you should stop arguing right now and start formulating more of your opinions from conversations with those in the business.

You are so far off.  The space/cost factor is a major problem at the CC.  It's too expensive for the limited space it has.  You have to realize a certain cost per square foot to make a mid-size convention worthwhile/profitable.  If you can't squeeze out certain margins, its not worth the time and effort to put an event on in certain venues.  The Prime Osborne simply cannot compete in that arena in its present form.

LMAO, quoted so it doesn't disappear. You'll be eating that soon enough.

And Field, you seriously have no clue when it comes to this convention center stuff. One would think you'd just stop while you're ahead. What I said was completely accurate, and if you knew anything about the state of this business in Jacksonville you'd know that the Prime Osborn indeed does give away their space for free to any event that brings in 200 or more people. If the cost consideration is a major factor, considering the space is given away free to most events, then that's even further reason not to proceed with building a larger convention center.

Lol, so let me see if I follow your argument, the Prime Osborn is giving itself away for free and has next to zero utilization, so your solution is naturally to build an even bigger one. After all the supply/demand situation on convention space that you literally can't give away in Jacksonville clearly warrants a larger more expensive building?

You are seriously making no sense. Also, Ad Hominem is generally the first sign of an argument out of gas...

[thelakelander]

Actually SMG has been advertising a deal on the Convention Center for a few months.  If you can guarantee 200 hotel rooms, theyve been offering the Prime Osborn for free.

I personally verified this, and it has been a topic of discussion about the Center in a few meetings.

I'd love to get all that out of the PO, which will allow us to create a useable transportation center. Because this is ridiculous:





All of this nonsense because we can't properly address this convention center location issue?

[ChriswUfGator]

And Lake, while I parse through the rest of your answers, I need to correct something you said in your first paragraph, because while there may be 21 scheduled events at the Prime Osborn, almost all of them are silly PTA Meetings and similar tiny events that people hold there because the space is free. When you look at what the actual CONVENTIONS are, because it is after all a CONVENTION CENTER and not a multimillion-dollar loss-producing PTA Meeting Hall, then there are a whopping total of 5 actual events.

Kind of disinginuous to just use the total number, when that includes a PTA meeting and church luncheons.

[thelakelander]

Well, let's get those PTO meetings out of the PO and into to heart of DT.  By the way, the Hyatt is heavily subsidized.  We have something like +$20 million sitting in that box.