Five Drastic Steps To Revive Downtown Jacksonville

[ChriswUfGator]

Charlotte also worked for a decade beforehand making sure that their city was filled with the kind of social and entertainment fabric that a convention would want to come to, and started a modern conversation about mass transit.

Without those things being in place, plus a convention team that was on the ball, there would be no economic benefit to the convention center.

Charlotte did what we should be doing.  Clustering the hell out of everything, including a convention center.  Think that convention center wasn't built around what eventually became the LRT line on purpose? Think the museums, arena and entertainment complexes that were recently developed were not placed in their specific locations adjacent to the convention center and LRT stations on purpose?  Uptown is what it is today because that city systematically developed everything with an idea of how each individual part fit into an overall setting.  Just about everything developed actually complements adjacent uses. The result of that is a place where an assortment of activity takes place on an around the clock basis.  They literally built a city that works on top of surface parking lots during the same period we destroyed one.

Right, and because they did all that, and also because they encouraged business development downtown, they attracted actual, organic, sustainable, economic activity, and with that comes a vibrant urban environment. That's what makes it all work there. What you are suggesting is that we skip all of that, which for Charlotte represents four decades worth of work, and just skip straight to building the convention center in our dead downtown. Do you REALLY think that's going to work out like it did in Charlotte?

We shouldn't skip anything. They actually did a lot of things at the same time, all promoting and fulfilling an unified vision.  Two of those things include the planning of a convention center and rail during the mid-1990s.  So it would make sense that both of these projects now complement each other and the surrounding environment. My suggestion is we learn how to multitask as well.

Again, the convention center feeds off organic demand, and as with any other commercial structure, merely building a building can't create demand or magically go *poof* and generate a viable market. This is why so many of these things turn out so poorly, there's the urban planning side of it, and then there's the business side of it. Buildings aren't business. Unless you're in the profession of constructing them, which industry incidentally are the only ones (Preston Haskell) floating this idea as beneficial. I guess in the truest sense, it would be beneficial. To them.

I still think my Uranium mine and DogWalker's Snow Removal Company are far more likely to be successful than this proposed convention center, if we're talking about operating losses and success at its stated purpose. At least there's a small chance we might actually mine some Uranium, and it did snow here in the 1990s, which gives it a better shot of success than the proposed convention center. At least we've never tried a Uranium mine before, while this will be our third failed convention center. Fourth if you count Jacksonville Beach.

Are the local events we have today like Magnet Mania and the Black Expo not organic?  Can you not reduce/eliminate operating losses (I'll admit, I have not seen the numbers) through the use of creative public/private partnerships and incorporating a mix of uses on site?

O.K., so if we agree that what made Charlotte successful, not only as an urban environment, but also as host city to an active convention center, are all things that do not exist here but which must be created, then I again do not understand why we would not prioritize creating the kind of economic activity that makes all this stuff tick, BEFORE wasting a ton of money on a convention center that we all know won't work without those prerequisites.

It's not like there is an unlimited money supply to go around. Back to my broken-car example, I'm not saying that we should never have a good stereo, the problem is that right now the engine doesn't work, and we have a limited budget. There is no logic whatsoever in spending a bunch of money on a new stereo before you fix the motor. Nobody will ride in a broken car, no matter how nice the stereo is. We have a dead downtown that we could plop Las Vegas or Orlando's half-billion-dollar convention centers in the middle of, and it wouldn't do a damned thing. The building is not why people don't come here. They want vibrancy and things to do when they get here, and presently we have nothing of the sort. And all of that has to be generated organically, separate from a convention center.

Maybe in time we can support a convention center, but for right now that money needs to be spent in other places, or else it will wind up as yet another failure in a series of failed convention centers here in Jacksonville. And regarding our measly 4 or 5 events like "Magnet Collectors" and the Black Expo, give me a break, those don't come close to 1% utilizing our existing facility, that is hardly a justification for building a bigger one.

[thelakelander]

 

Doesn't matter to me.  My focus in this debate is to suggest that a well run, well placed convention center, featuring a mix of uses on site, can be a part of an organic urban environment.  I'll leave the merits and inner workings of the industry on a national level to you guys.

You know, maybe you're right.

So if these are the elements of success, then why don't we build a gigantic life-sized recreation of a huge Muslim temple downtown as well? It works out pretty damn well for Mecca, you know they get like 2 million visitors a year from all over the world! So if we just build the building and establish connectivity between it and other things, then that's all it takes to guarantee success, right? What works in Mecca must work here, as long as it's properly clustered, right?

All these other factors, like the little problem that we're just trying to copy/mimic things that work in other cities for reasons that don't exist or don't carry over here, or the fact that this will be our 3rd or 4th failed convention center, just don't matter, right? So if we build Mecca downtown and cluster it with other things, then we're guaranteed to have 2 million visitors a year? Sweet!

Well if we have a large Muslim population already downtown, maybe we should build a Temple.

You're reaching on that one, since I've already stated a ton of times that we already have events that we're not properly utilizing.  So, like it or not, we're already in the game.  So let's stop reaching and stick with te reality of what we're already playing with.

Lake, I've met you many times in real life, you're a heck of a lot smarter than this...

You're railing off hot air at this point.  You're claiming things I've never stated and attempting to shoot down an entire industry and all I'm saying is even a well managed, well run convention center hosting the events we already have, can help in the effort to create an 24/7 downtown environment.  This is exactly the same argument for relocating Amtrak back downtown and kicking the CC out of the terminal to allow for a more compact transportation hub.  You may not agree with me using a convention center in this debate about the impact of connectivity and clustering compact uses to promote urban synergy but you can't prove that it doesn't work.  Regardless of the use, if you connect it with complementing uses in a compact setting, you can spur complementing activity.  Give me your uranium mine and I'll show you how to form an industrial district.

[thelakelander]

O.K., so if we agree that what made Charlotte successful, not only as an urban environment, but also as host city to an active convention center, are all things that do not exist here but which must be created, then I again do not understand why we would not prioritize creating the kind of economic activity that makes all this stuff tick, BEFORE wasting a ton of money on a convention center that we all know won't work without those prerequisites.

We already have assets in place to work with.  Why not multitask to improve upon these assets?  We are a city of nearly 900,000 residents.  We should be more than capable enough to tackle several issues at the same time.  Last, but not least (I'm starting to sound like a broken record), if you don't want to waste money, go public/private and mixed use.

It's not like there is an unlimited money supply to go around. Back to my broken-car example, I'm not saying that we should never have a good stereo, the problem is that right now the engine doesn't work, and we have a limited budget. There is no logic whatsoever in spending a bunch of money on a new stereo before you fix the motor. Nobody will ride in a broken car, no matter how nice the stereo is. We have a dead downtown that we could plop Las Vegas or Orlando's half-billion-dollar convention centers in the middle of, and it wouldn't do a damned thing. The building is not why people don't come here. They want vibrancy and things to do when they get here, and presently we have nothing of the sort. And all of that has to be generated organically, separate from a convention center.

Yes, buildings don't bring people.  You create vibrancy be clustering complementing uses within a compact setting. I think I've said that before a couple of times.

Maybe in time we can support a convention center, but for right now that money needs to be spent in other places, or else it will wind up as yet another failure in a series of failed convention centers here in Jacksonville.  And regarding our measly 4 or 5 events like "Magnet Collectors" and the Black Expo, give me a break, those don't come close to 1% utilizing our existing facility, that is hardly a justification for building a bigger one.

Again, think public/private.  We have the land, so for all we know that could be our public contribution in a creative deal.  Btw, our events that outgrew our facility and left town were small at one point as well.

[thelakelander]

Drop by Three Layers tonight, we can discuss and I'll answer whatever questions you have.  I have some things I need to attend to.

[ChriswUfGator]

Doesn't matter to me.  My focus in this debate is to suggest that a well run, well placed convention center, featuring a mix of uses on site, can be a part of an organic urban environment.  I'll leave the merits and inner workings of the industry on a national level to you guys.

You know, maybe you're right.

So if these are the elements of success, then why don't we build a gigantic life-sized recreation of a huge Muslim temple downtown as well? It works out pretty damn well for Mecca, you know they get like 2 million visitors a year from all over the world! So if we just build the building and establish connectivity between it and other things, then that's all it takes to guarantee success, right? What works in Mecca must work here, as long as it's properly clustered, right?

All these other factors, like the little problem that we're just trying to copy/mimic things that work in other cities for reasons that don't exist or don't carry over here, or the fact that this will be our 3rd or 4th failed convention center, just don't matter, right? So if we build Mecca downtown and cluster it with other things, then we're guaranteed to have 2 million visitors a year? Sweet!

Well if we have a large Muslim population already downtown, maybe we should build a Temple.

You're reaching on that one, since I've already stated a ton of times that we already have events that we're not properly utilizing.  So, like it or not, we're already in the game.  So let's stop reaching and stick with te reality of what we're already playing with.

Lake, I've met you many times in real life, you're a heck of a lot smarter than this...

You're railing off hot air at this point.  You're claiming things I've never stated and attempting to shoot down an entire industry and all I'm saying is even a well managed, well run convention center hosting the events we already have, can help in the effort to create an 24/7 downtown environment.  This is exactly the same argument for relocating Amtrak back downtown and kicking the CC out of the terminal to allow for a more compact transportation hub.  You may not agree with me using a convention center in this debate about the impact of connectivity and clustering compact uses to promote urban synergy but you can't prove that it doesn't work.  Regardless of the use, if you connect it with complementing uses in a compact setting, you can spur complementing activity.  Give me your uranium mine and I'll show you how to form an industrial district.

I'm not inventing arguments or blowing hot air, Lake, I'm just questioning what exactly would make this work (the 3rd or 4th go around, this time) when there is no viable market here. You do acknowledge that the convention business we have at the existing center is rather paltry and doesn't properly utilize or support that facility, correct? So then I'm not following you on how that would justify the construction of a bigger one?

At the end of the day, your gist is really "build it and they will come" that's what this all boils down to. We both know the demand isn't here for it. And that just doesn't work. You can't go *poof* and magically create business demand and a viable market just by constructing a building. Because that's not how the convention business, or really ANY business for that matter, works. And I think that's where we disagree on this issue.

So I would pose to you a series of questions;

1: Do you believe the convention business we have now appropriately supports or utilizes our existing facility?

2: Do we have the demand to justify the continued existence of the present facility?

3: Where is the demand to justify the construction of a larger facility, when we can't fill the one we have?

4: Why didn't the former convention center in the original Memorial Coliseum work out?

(After all, it was quite large, and connected by expressway to hotel space.)

5: Why didn't the Jacksonville Beach Convention Center work?

(After all, it was also quite large, and near to supporting hotel space.)

6: Why DID the original private model of convention hosting by private hotels work?

7: What happened to our number of convention visitors (originally 200k-250k) when we took that business from the private hotels by building a series of public convention centers?

8: Is this an abnormal result when government gets into private business?

9: Is there any event at the current convention center that couldn't be hosted by a large private hotel with convention rooms, like the Hyatt?

[Keith-N-Jax]

Again your focus is more on trying to gain market share in a specialize area of the market we're not in.  My focus is more set in on the reality of our current built environment. 


A. Don't do anything and continue to fail at everything (transit, convention, Hyatt, Landing, Bay Street, etc.).




^^^ That's it right there. Unfortunately that has been the trend here for a while. If and when JTA builds that Transportation Center then what? Opportunity lost again.

[vicupstate]

Charlotte also worked for a decade beforehand making sure that their city was filled with the kind of social and entertainment fabric that a convention would want to come to, and started a modern conversation about mass transit.

As I stated in my original post, DT Charlotte was DEAD in 1995.  1995 was years before the Light Rail or the restaurant/entertainment infux, or nearly all of the permanent housing that exceeds 10,000 today.

   

[ChriswUfGator]

Charlotte also worked for a decade beforehand making sure that their city was filled with the kind of social and entertainment fabric that a convention would want to come to, and started a modern conversation about mass transit.

As I stated in my original post, DT Charlotte was DEAD in 1995.  1995 was years before the Light Rail or the restaurant/entertainment infux, or nearly all of the permanent housing that exceeds 10,000 today.

Downtown Charlotte was never dead like Jacksonville is dead, they still had economic generators downtown, which ultimately was why things turned out one way there and differently here. We actively chased off our former economic engines (corporate headquarters, transportation, industrial).

[vicupstate]

Bank of America (largest bank in the United States), Wachovia, Nucor Steel, Duke Energy, Lowe's, Time-Warner Cable, ESPN, Belk Department Stores, Harris Teeter, Muzak, Compass Bank, Family Dollar, B.F.Goodrich, SPX Corp., NASCAR

Okay, so the NAACP went to Charlotte because they are the home of NASCAR?  The NRA went to Charlotte because of banks?

I don't buy it.   

Those Fortune 500 companies didn't pay for the convention center, and they are not the primary users either.  So what exactly is your point? No matter what city I choose to use as an example, you will pick some totally irrelevant reason as to why it proves nothing.


Maybe they went there because they had the facilities and they where centrally located and it was a different location from previous ones.  Many organizations will NOT repeat a location.  Every year a different city is choosen, because they want to provide a unique experience each year.

Your basic premise (not just on a convention center, but just about any topic) is that Jacksonville is totally and wholly incapable of doing anything right, so why even try to do anything.   If pessimism was prosperity, Jax wouldn't have any problems.     

Stephan, why don't you ask the Omni or the Hyatt if they would protest a 'public' convention center being built.  No one would be happier to see one open than them.   

[ChriswUfGator]

Bank of America (largest bank in the United States), Wachovia, Nucor Steel, Duke Energy, Lowe's, Time-Warner Cable, ESPN, Belk Department Stores, Harris Teeter, Muzak, Compass Bank, Family Dollar, B.F.Goodrich, SPX Corp., NASCAR

Okay, so the NAACP went to Charlotte because they are the home of NASCAR?  The NRA went to Charlotte because of banks?

I don't buy it.  

Those Fortune 500 companies didn't pay for the convention center, and they are not the primary users either.  So what exactly is your point? No matter what city I choose to use as an example, you will pick some totally irrelevant reason as to why it proves nothing.


Maybe they went there because they had the facilities and they where centrally located and it was a different location from previous ones.  Many organizations will NOT repeat a location.  Every year a different city is choosen, because they want to provide a unique experience each year.

Your basic premise (not just on a convention center, but just about any topic) is that Jacksonville is totally and wholly incapable of doing anything right, so why even try to do anything.   If pessimism was prosperity, Jax wouldn't have any problems.      

Stephan, why don't you ask the Omni or the Hyatt if they would protest a 'public' convention center being built.  No one would be happier to see one open than them.  

WTF are you talking about with this NAACP and NRA stuff? Who said anything about that?

You just jumped the shark, three freighters, and a couple jet skis. WTF does that have to with anything?

In the 19th Century, the British went to China for the Opium, too! But I don't see WTF that has to do with a convention center in Jacksonville?

[vicupstate]

Charlotte also worked for a decade beforehand making sure that their city was filled with the kind of social and entertainment fabric that a convention would want to come to, and started a modern conversation about mass transit.

As I stated in my original post, DT Charlotte was DEAD in 1995.  1995 was years before the Light Rail or the restaurant/entertainment infux, or nearly all of the permanent housing that exceeds 10,000 today.

Downtown Charlotte was never dead like Jacksonville is dead, they still had economic generators downtown, which ultimately was why things turned out one way there and differently here. We actively chased off our former economic engines (corporate headquarters, transportation, industrial).

Let me clarify.  DT  Charlotte was deserted after 5pm.  That's how Jax has been for decades, only now it isn't even doing that well between 9am -5pm.  If something isn't done to bring some life to DT, then the life that does exist during businesss hours will eventually die out as well.

[vicupstate]

Bank of America (largest bank in the United States), Wachovia, Nucor Steel, Duke Energy, Lowe's, Time-Warner Cable, ESPN, Belk Department Stores, Harris Teeter, Muzak, Compass Bank, Family Dollar, B.F.Goodrich, SPX Corp., NASCAR

Okay, so the NAACP went to Charlotte because they are the home of NASCAR?  The NRA went to Charlotte because of banks?

I don't buy it.  

Those Fortune 500 companies didn't pay for the convention center, and they are not the primary users either.  So what exactly is your point? No matter what city I choose to use as an example, you will pick some totally irrelevant reason as to why it proves nothing.


Maybe they went there because they had the facilities and they where centrally located and it was a different location from previous ones.  Many organizations will NOT repeat a location.  Every year a different city is choosen, because they want to provide a unique experience each year.

Your basic premise (not just on a convention center, but just about any topic) is that Jacksonville is totally and wholly incapable of doing anything right, so why even try to do anything.   If pessimism was prosperity, Jax wouldn't have any problems.      

Stephan, why don't you ask the Omni or the Hyatt if they would protest a 'public' convention center being built.  No one would be happier to see one open than them.  

WTF are you talking about with this NAACP and NRA stuff? Who said anything about that?

You just jumped the shark, three freighters, and a couple jet skis. WTF does that have to with anything?

In the 19th Century, the British went to China for the Opium, too! But I don't see WTF that has to do with a convention center in Jacksonville?

Did you even READ my original POST?


70,000 people spent three days in Charlotte because they had the facilities to hold that NRA convention. A similair impact was felt with the NAACP convention.

Do you think those 70,000 people spent any money in those three days?  

The whole point was to show the econominc impact that conventions, and by extention, convention centers, can have.  They justify their existance by their economic impact.

What do you not comprehend about that?   That is completely germane to the topic.  

[ChriswUfGator]

Charlotte also worked for a decade beforehand making sure that their city was filled with the kind of social and entertainment fabric that a convention would want to come to, and started a modern conversation about mass transit.

As I stated in my original post, DT Charlotte was DEAD in 1995.  1995 was years before the Light Rail or the restaurant/entertainment infux, or nearly all of the permanent housing that exceeds 10,000 today.

Downtown Charlotte was never dead like Jacksonville is dead, they still had economic generators downtown, which ultimately was why things turned out one way there and differently here. We actively chased off our former economic engines (corporate headquarters, transportation, industrial).

Let me clarify.  DT  Charlotte was deserted after 5pm.  That's how Jax has been for decades, only now it isn't even doing that well between 9am -5pm.  If something isn't done to bring some life to DT, then the life that does exist during businesss hours will eventually die out as well.

Right, I agree with you there. A lot of urban areas underwent a decline during this period, Charlotte was no different. But Jacksonville is vastly different. We aren't talking about a decline and rebirth, as happened elsewhere. Downtown Jacksonville pretty much up and died, due to a series of catastrophically bad decisions by local government leaders who didn't understand the economic forces behind the decline they were causing, didn't understand how to fix it, and didn't understand what had made the urban core successful in the first place.

As the direct result of this group's decisions, we now have a dead downtown of which 4/5th's is demolished or vacant, a lot of what is left is empty parking garages, and what few remaining employers are down there are fleeing left and right because of these same decisions. The only thing the current administration seems willing or able to do to fix it is to buy up a bunch of the buildings and turn the entire former city into one giant bloated City Hall.

And those same people are still around, and their latest magic bullet is...you guess it...this proposed convention center. At what point do we say, we've given your ideas a chance, they don't work, it's time for fresh ideas?

[ChriswUfGator]

Bank of America (largest bank in the United States), Wachovia, Nucor Steel, Duke Energy, Lowe's, Time-Warner Cable, ESPN, Belk Department Stores, Harris Teeter, Muzak, Compass Bank, Family Dollar, B.F.Goodrich, SPX Corp., NASCAR

Okay, so the NAACP went to Charlotte because they are the home of NASCAR?  The NRA went to Charlotte because of banks?

I don't buy it.  

Those Fortune 500 companies didn't pay for the convention center, and they are not the primary users either.  So what exactly is your point? No matter what city I choose to use as an example, you will pick some totally irrelevant reason as to why it proves nothing.


Maybe they went there because they had the facilities and they where centrally located and it was a different location from previous ones.  Many organizations will NOT repeat a location.  Every year a different city is choosen, because they want to provide a unique experience each year.

Your basic premise (not just on a convention center, but just about any topic) is that Jacksonville is totally and wholly incapable of doing anything right, so why even try to do anything.   If pessimism was prosperity, Jax wouldn't have any problems.      

Stephan, why don't you ask the Omni or the Hyatt if they would protest a 'public' convention center being built.  No one would be happier to see one open than them.  

WTF are you talking about with this NAACP and NRA stuff? Who said anything about that?

You just jumped the shark, three freighters, and a couple jet skis. WTF does that have to with anything?

In the 19th Century, the British went to China for the Opium, too! But I don't see WTF that has to do with a convention center in Jacksonville?

Did you even READ my original POST?


70,000 people spent three days in Charlotte because they had the facilities to hold that NRA convention. A similair impact was felt with the NAACP convention.

Do you think those 70,000 people spent any money in those three days?  

The whole point was to show the econominc impact that conventions, and by extention, convention centers, can have.  They justify their existance by their economic impact.

What do you not comprehend about that?   That is completely germane to the topic.  

They do not justify their existence with economic impact, first off.

Secondly, let's distill your silly argument down to its implied premise. Let me ask you a simple question;

Do you think that if we built an exact replica of Charlotte's, or Las Vegas', or Orlando's, convention center, in downtown Jacksonville, that we will suddenly have their convention business? Why? That is quite literally your exact argument, what do you have to justify it?

Do you think there are any other factors regarding why someone would choose those places over Jacksonville maybe?

[vicupstate]

Vic.

I owned a restaurant in downtown while the convention center was having conventions.

In order to work with the convention center you have to pay an annual 500 dollar fee, so that you can have the privilege of bidding against other people who also had to pay the 500 dollar fee for catering.

The jobs usually go to the catering companies, none of which were based in downtown Jacksonville.

Hotels are for anything that has to possibility of putting asses in beds, even if it means taking a systemically lower profit margin.  

Ask the hotels whether or not they would prefer that the Visitors and Convention Center were required to book whole conventions in their hotels instead, and see which option they would choose first.

Is the CVB going to forbid convention goers from eating in your restuarant?

The hotels cannot host conventions of the size.  The get the business they can but they can't compete on the higher tiers.  The pie would not just be divided more times, it would grow much bigger.  That is the whole point.

Do you honestly think that if a major sized convention center went on the current courthouse lot, that the Landing, Bay Street, the Hyatt, the Omni, and eventually (with proper planning by the CVB and the city) Laura Street would not see a quantum increase in business?