Florida High Speed Rail - The Progressive Way

[Doctor_K]

Do we even know where it's going?  From where to where?  From the looks of it, the route (and therefore endpoints) haven't been determined.  You're going to have a hard sell getting 2.5 million riders on it if it doesn't connect to any other form of transit.

From downtown Tampa through Lakeland, Disney, I-Drive, and finally the Orlando airport.

And while the transit systems we have may not be ideal, there are local transit connections existing at all the stops....and in fact, Disney runs the largest transit system in Florida

So 10-11 miles from Disney to I-Drive, another 10-11 miles from I-Drive to OIA.

Is that the best use of HSR?  Local stops? 

I thought HSR was best suited for long(er) distances.  Like Tampa-Lakeland (36 miles) and Lakeland-Orlando (38 miles) I can understand, mostly.  Certainly Orlando-Daytona at ~54 miles.

But wouldn't the I.Drive-Disney-OIA stretch be better suited by regular rail?

[Ocklawaha]

Doc, you are correct that VERY SHORT stage lengths are a disaster waiting to happen with our HSR. It is more suited to the 100-500 mile segments then the 10, 11, or 20 mile segments in Central Florida. This article of WARNING is from the newest issue of the International Railway Journal:

Fortunately, one of the United States' leading manufacturers, GE, has now recognised the potential of high-speed and will form a US-based joint venture with CSR, China.

China's plan to break the world rail speed record this year, currently held by France, is another step in its strategy to demonstrate that it is now able to make its own technical advances, while China's two manufacturing giants, CNR and CSR, are poised to unleash their new-found technology and products on the world.

In contrast, France currently seems hell-bent on squandering its high-speed legacy with its misguided policy of threatening legal action when it fails to get its own way, as the continuing dispute over Eurostar's decision to award a contract for high-speed trains to Siemens rather than Alstom demonstrates. In the latest twist in this absurd saga, French members of parliament are trying to block the deal even though the contract has been signed.

Investing in high-speed also represents a challenge and a danger for countries which only have conventional railways, or are new to rail, and lack a sound industrial base.

Running a high-speed railway is very different from a conventional one. Operating and maintenance staff must be of a very high calibre and well trained and disciplined, and there needs to be strong technical support. Failure to maintain the railway in tip-top condition will quickly lead to reductions in speed and reliability, and worst of all, compromise safety.

One wonders if some of the countries planning to build high-speed lines are fully aware of the challenges and risks they face. A serious accident with high loss of life would be a major setback for high-speed rail, as would a "white elephant" project.

There is more to high-speed than simply providing a short journey time between two cities. To be successful, stations need to be well connected to the areas they serve. The huge investment in metros in Chinese cities will certainly help, but it is interesting to note while the 120km dash by 350km/h train from Beijing to Tianjin lasts just 30 minutes, it takes at least one hour to cross Beijing by metro.

Passengers also demand a lot more than just speed. They expect high-quality and highly-reliable services with internet access, catering, and online purchase of tickets. The aim should be to try to turn what is essentially a mass mode of transport into a personal service.

High-speed rail technology has come a long way since the first Japanese bullet train flashed past Mount Fuji in 1964. Advances in technology have made it possible to almost double the maximum speed of trains from 200 to 380km/h, which has extended the commercial reach of high-speed trains to distances in excess of 1000km.

Nevertheless, several speakers in Beijing were keen to point out that other modes of transport are advancing as well.

"Air transport is doing a lot to become more efficient, and we should not underestimate the new developments taking place with electric cars, so there is certainly no certainty and no stability," says Mrs Barbara Dalibard, CEO of SNCF Voyages, France. "On the other hand, I am very optimistic, but we have to fight to retain our market share and we must push for innovations."

Certainly, there is no room for complacency in the development of high-speed rail.

OCKLAWAHA

[Doctor_K]

One more reason (as if we needed more) why HSR will suck and fail in Central Fla.  Thanks Ock.

[thelakelander]

Assuming private companies risk their money in Florida's HSR plan, what's the chance that they modify it to create a more viable project?

[tufsu1]

So 10-11 miles from Disney to I-Drive, another 10-11 miles from I-Drive to OIA.

Is that the best use of HSR?  Local stops?  

I thought HSR was best suited for long(er) distances.  Like Tampa-Lakeland (36 miles) and Lakeland-Orlando (38 miles) I can understand, mostly.  Certainly Orlando-Daytona at ~54 miles.

But wouldn't the I.Drive-Disney-OIA stretch be better suited by regular rail?

the HSR plan includes running local and express trains....which dare I say is a good use of the track infrastructure.

So there will be trains that go directly from Tampa to Orlando, ones that also stop in Lakeland, ones that stop everywhere, and some that only go between Disney and OIA.

[FayeforCure]

I agree Faye....I was just suggesting that the report you cited doesn't "make the case".

Point well taken, as the report did leave out that visitor angle, and thus understated the positive recommendation for Florida High Speed rail.

This has created unnecessary confusion and misunderstanding and they should have just included that visitor angle even though it is difficult to quantify.

It would have been better if an underestimate of visitor trips was used, rather than leaving it out altogether.

[Doctor_K]

the HSR plan includes running local and express trains....which dare I say is a good use of the track infrastructure.

So there will be trains that go directly from Tampa to Orlando, ones that also stop in Lakeland, ones that stop everywhere, and some that only go between Disney and OIA.

Ok I comprehend that theory, but what about...

Doc, you are correct that VERY SHORT stage lengths are a disaster waiting to happen with our HSR. It is more suited to the 100-500 mile segments then the 10, 11, or 20 mile segments in Central Florida.

Is there really such a thing as 'local HSR'?  Do the trains have the ability to achieve "HSR" velocity in a 10-mile stretch that has to include departing and approaching the termini stations?

[thelakelander]

The 84 mile long Tampa/Orlando is phase 1.  Once it's extended to Miami, it will be 324 miles in length.  I like the idea of using track infrastructure for local and express trains.  However, I think to be an ultimate success, it needs more stops to effectively serve local every day traffic.  The majority of people using this system won't be going from end point to end point.  In other words, this thing really needs to be more of a hybrid system that combines some elements of HSR with the local context and trip characteristics.  I wonder if private companies will suggest doing something of this nature in the long run, if asked to take on significant risks?

[Ocklawaha]

Well stated Lake, which brings us right back to the CSX alignment with improvements, expansions and alterations. It has also been the Achilles heal of AMTRAK in Florida - blowing right through many of the smaller cities that were once the bread and butter of rail services. Just as a city of 2 million people and an international airport that is easily in the WORLDS TOP 25 doesn't really depend on passenger rail as a city like Havre Montana where some of the highest ridership in the Amtrak system comes from. Likewise Amtrak shot themselves in the foot the day they took over back in 1971, not only eliminating 3/4Ths of all passenger train routes, and cutting the remaining skeleton to routes with single daily trains, they also wiped out places like Palatka and Green Cove Springs. Missing that core of little towns in the citrus belt is going to cost us EVEN if the train is build and meets its ridership goals. We the citizens will have the privileged of driving I-4 between Tampa and Orlando and waving to the tourists on a railroad not designed with Floridians in mind.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

CSX has shown little to no interest in opening up their tracks from Auburndale to Tampa

[yapp1850]

can these international rail firms if they win the contract change the route and stations

[tufsu1]

can these international rail firms if they win the contract change the route and stations

potentially yes...but it would require going through the FTA environmental process again (which they won't do).....what they will likely do is choose the Lakeland station location (between Kathleen Rd and USF Poly)

[futurejax]

I assume this has been posted somewhere?



http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-01-17/story/florida%E2%80%99s-jacksonville-miami-rail-plan-halfway-reality

(fixed your link - OCK)

[Ocklawaha]

CSX has shown little to no interest in opening up their tracks from Auburndale to Tampa

This train will be hard to stop...Note the part of the line that seems to bypass Jacksonville, is in fact within our city limits and runs through Baldwin going north-south. The other line you see goes right into JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL.

REALLY?

It would be a hell of a lot cheaper to buy the Balance of the CSX route with freight lease-back under an access agreement then it would be to build that dumb line down I-4. Actually as the above map shows, CSX is more in the grove then the CITY OF JACKSONVILLE is aware. That is FREIGHT AND PASSENGER routes they have applied for.

How interested would they be? In spite of the saber rattling and anti passenger rhetoric that comes out of the "Marble Palace," CSX had NO PROBLEM jumping into the Corridors of the Future Program Application.  The Southeast I-95 Corridor is all CSX.  Improvements will between Jacksonville and Washington, DC call for triple track and electrification. This has already be applied for by CSX Corporation, May 25, 2007, one of the many maps printed above. In the application they spell out that they fully expect a HUGE increase in passenger rail on the corridor, AMTRAK - SEHSR - FLORIDA REGIONAL - SE REGIONAL - COMMUTER RAIL - FLORIDA HSR, ALL OF THE ABOVE. Sure they have their ideas on separation and safety issues but all in all, its not only the corridor of the future, but we are the hinge pin.

THIS COW CROSSING BETTER BE DAMN WELL READY OR SAVANNAH OR SANFORD WILL TURN US INTO HAMBURGER!

OCKLAWAHA

[futurejax]

CSX has shown little to no interest in opening up their tracks from Auburndale to Tampa

This train will be hard to stop...Note the part of the line that seems to bypass Jacksonville, is in fact within our city limits and runs through Baldwin going north-south. The other line you see goes right into JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL.

REALLY?

It would be a hell of a lot cheaper to buy the Balance of the CSX route with freight lease-back under an access agreement then it would be to build that dumb line down I-4. Actually as the above map shows, CSX is more in the grove then the CITY OF JACKSONVILLE is aware. That is FREIGHT AND PASSENGER routes they have applied for.

How interested would they be? In spite of the saber rattling and anti passenger rhetoric that comes out of the "Marble Palace," CSX had NO PROBLEM jumping into the Corridors of the Future Program Application.  The Southeast I-95 Corridor is all CSX.  Improvements will between Jacksonville and Washington, DC call for triple track and electrification. This has already be applied for by CSX Corporation, May 25, 2007, one of the many maps printed above. In the application they spell out that they fully expect a HUGE increase in passenger rail on the corridor, AMTRAK - SEHSR - FLORIDA REGIONAL - SE REGIONAL - COMMUTER RAIL - FLORIDA HSR, ALL OF THE ABOVE. Sure they have their ideas on separation and safety issues but all in all, its not only the corridor of the future, but we are the hinge pin.

THIS COW CROSSING BETTER BE DAMN WELL READY OR SAVANNAH OR SANFORD WILL TURN US INTO HAMBURGER!

OCKLAWAHA

very interesting

glad i've got my csx stock