2030 Mobility Plan Presentation

[Ocklawaha]

A little off-topic, but after the workshop, we were talking to Bill about the commuter rail and he said that the new owner of the FEC lines is very interested in a passenger service.  I got the impression that this company may even consider operating it privately.  Anyone know more about this?

This wouldn't be too great a shock after the Norfolk Southern CEO said in a speech that he would consider operating their own passenger trains as long as their capacity would be increased to accommodate them and the state-federal-local governments would cover the expenses.

Bottom line, railroads are BACK in the business of moving rail cars... and as a certain executive of a Colombian Railroad said just a few years ago: "I don't care if you want to ship carloads of guerrilla's as long as they're a revenue load."


OCKLAWAHA

[spuwho]

This wouldn't be too great a shock after the Norfolk Southern CEO said in a speech that he would consider operating their own passenger trains as long as their capacity would be increased to accommodate them and the state-federal-local governments would cover the expenses.

Bottom line, railroads are BACK in the business of moving rail cars... and as a certain executive of a Colombian Railroad said just a few years ago: "I don't care if you want to ship carloads of guerrilla's as long as they're a revenue load."


OCKLAWAHA

Yeah, I could run my own passenger rail if the Feds paid for the capacity and covered my expenses. What the CEO is saying I can move any passenger you want as long as the Feds pay for it.

Sell passenger rail franchises to private parties with access to the rails just like airlines have to the air. Let them negotiate trackage rights like any other rail entity.

Rail won't be BACK until they start running scheduled services and stick to them. Then and only then does passenger rail get a chance to be viable, otherwise it will be what it is today, Amtrak sitting on a siding waiting for freights to clear.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

[tufsu1]

actually spuwho...the only rail line in the U.S. that even operates at a profit is Amtrak's Acela....so for a private company to take on the operating risks of a rail line (HSR or not) is pretty impressive.

[dougskiles]

Lakelander, any updates on the status of the legislation for the Mobility Plan?  If I remember correctly from the presentation, there are some things that have to happen in Tallahassee with SB360 before we can adopt the plan locally.  But then I remember Bill saying that it may be possible for us to move forward regardless of what the state outcome is.

I'm curious to know what your thoughts are regarding the timing of getting this done before the new mayor and council take office.  My guess is that if it is not enacted prior, that some of the candidates may try to put the axe to it - which would be a shame.  I really like the plan.  Has there been any official reaction from any of the campaigns to the plan?

[thelakelander]

No word from any of the campaigns yet.  I still doubt that they've paid much attention to it.  Nevertheless, I can't imagine why any candidate would try and take away something the development community is in favor of here.  It's something that saves the community money, is fair (remember, this will replace traffic concurrency) and improves our Quality of Life.  In any event, we'll have a new mayor before everything is official.

[tufsu1]

there is a Mayoral Forum scheduled for 1/27 at Modis....it is sponsored by several planning & real estate organizations....I'm sure the question will come up there.

Sadly, only Brown, Mullaney, and Moran are scheduled to appear....Mr. Hogan declined!

[dougskiles]

there is a Mayoral Forum scheduled for 1/27 at Modis....it is sponsored by several planning & real estate organizations....I'm sure the question will come up there.

Sadly, only Brown, Mullaney, and Moran are scheduled to appear....Mr. Hogan declined!

What time on 1/27?  The FDOT Overland Bridge public hearing is scheduled for 4:30 to 6:00 pm and I was hoping to attend that.  But the forum sounds more interesting.

[tufsu1]

Forum is 5 to 7:30pm....but a few warnings

1. I do not think it is free (there is probably a reception before the actual Q & A)
2. The forum itself probably ends by one, because there is another one down in Mandarin starting at 7:30pm

See below for more info.

https://netforum.uli.org/eweb/DynamicPage.aspx?site=ULIMC&webcode=DCouncilEventInfo&Reg_evt_key=1152ab4f-8e28-4d18-8cc0-68502f2a65cc&RegPath=EventRegFees

[thelakelander]

Jacksonville planners eye new rules to discourage urban sprawl
They want builders to focus on filling in empty spots in built-up areas.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-01-20/story/jacksonville-planners-eye-new-rules-discourage-urban-sprawl

[Kiva]

Jacksonville planners eye new rules to discourage urban sprawl
They want builders to focus on filling in empty spots in built-up areas.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-01-20/story/jacksonville-planners-eye-new-rules-discourage-urban-sprawl

Great idea! Shame they didn't think of this 40 years ago!

[dougskiles]

How accurate are the numbers posted in the TU article?  Those shopping center costs seem a little high - particularly since it is now being shown that it may not be the shopping centers causing as much trip generation as the residential.

Though St. Johns County hasn't gone the moratorium route, it is doing a study of how its impact fees are calculated for commercial and residential developments. The study shows that impact fees for commercial development could be reduced by as much as 40 percent because updated traffic models show shopping centers, office buildings and other commercial projects have less impact on traffic congestion than previous studies showed.

http://jacksonville.com/business/2011-01-17/story/first-coasts-developers-call-moratorium-impact-fees-boost-jobs

Also, they are publishing fair share costs but those vary widely based on the cost to improve the road link.  Did they use an average?

[thelakelander]

I don't know what the TU did to come up with those numbers.  However, these are things to keep in mind that the TU examples don't mention.

TU Quote

Before and after

The main difference between the current concurrency system and the new mobility fee is that all developers will pay the (often-lower) mobility fee rather than some developers paying high fees and others small ones. Here is a sample of what projects paid under the old system and what they would pay under the new system:

- 350,000-square-foot shopping center
Fair share: $832,591
Mobility fee: $2,429,960

- 320,000-square-foot shopping center
Fair share: $7,825,108
Mobility fee: $2,269,964

- 87,600-square-foot shopping center
Fair share: $986,541
Mobility fee: $805,687

- 70,000-square-foot hotel
Fair share: $13,666
Mobility fee: $213,577

- 45,400-square-foot hotel
Fair share: $92,535
Mobility fee: $71,192

- 9,100-square-foot discount store
Fair share: $107,146
Mobility fee: $21,229

- 9,100-square-foot discount store
Fair share: $217,389
Mobility fee: $23,069

- 9,180-square-foot discount store
Fair share: $164,372
Mobility fee: $26,978

What has been omitted which will significantly influence the mobility fee numbers.

1) The city has been divided into five zones.  Downtown, Urban Priority Area, Urban Area, Suburban Area and Rural Area.  The average trip length varies per zone.  The further out your development is (meaning its users put more wear & tear on the streets), the higher the project's mobility fee will be.

2) Unlike fair share, the mobility fee has credit adjustments.  Developments can lower their mobility fee costs by incorporating design features that include higher densities, mix of uses, building adjacent to transit stations, bike/ped mitigation, affordable housing and TDM.

It's not clear if the TU comparisons factor these two important elements in.  However, I'll take a wild guess that they do not.

Here are a few images to help visualize my comments.

The Mobility Fee of a project in the same location can vary.  Design an autocentric development like this and it will be higher:





Design your project with a more multimodal friendly layout that includes a mix of uses in a compact setting to reduce the amount of short vehicle trips it generates and pay less:








Take these same design principles and build your project in an established area where infrastructure is already in place, redevelopment is desired and transit is planned and your cost will be even lower:



In short, the mobility fee/plan is designed to a be fair replacement of traffic concurrency for the development community while also disencouraging the proliferation of sprawl and being a funding mechanism for multimodal transportation improvements that people think can't happen without raising taxes.

[Ocklawaha]

This wouldn't be too great a shock after the Norfolk Southern CEO said in a speech that he would consider operating their own passenger trains as long as their capacity would be increased to accommodate them and the state-federal-local governments would cover the expenses.

Bottom line, railroads are BACK in the business of moving rail cars... and as a certain executive of a Colombian Railroad said just a few years ago: "I don't care if you want to ship carloads of guerrilla's as long as they're a revenue load."


OCKLAWAHA

Yeah, I could run my own passenger rail if the Feds paid for the capacity and covered my expenses. What the CEO is saying I can move any passenger you want as long as the Feds pay for it.

Sell passenger rail franchises to private parties with access to the rails just like airlines have to the air. Let them negotiate trackage rights like any other rail entity.

The statement is groundbreaking because until now railroads have said even if you pay for it I'll be damned if we let you use our tracks, passenger trains cause delays to freight. To have someone in his position step forward and say that they'll run the trains is quite refreshing.

Unless there is a ton of government funding involved you'll NEVER see any private parties with whatever access run passenger trains again. EVER! A cool Billion dollars tied up in equipment + a lease on track space + crew and station costs, and you can charge $15 bucks to Orlando...Maybe...   Ain't gonna fly Wilbur.

The government started this when after a wreck in the  northeast caused the ICC to regulate every aspect of the railroad passenger operations in the early 50's. Included in the new rules was an unfunded mandate to put in a state of the art signaling system or restrict all trains to 80 mph.

Next the government funded parallel Interstate Highways which often short hauled the older longer railroad routes, and were open to all.

Then the government pulled the US MAIL off of all of the trains and put them onto airplanes.

Meanwhile they introduced the CAB, FAA, ATC etc... for the Airlines and convinced and funded cities and states to build super airports all over the country.

...and you really think Mr. Joe Lunchbucket with some railroad equipment will make it in that environment?


OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

I'm just saddened that Sleiman won't be building any new shopping centers in Jax....especially the ones that cost $1 million to build!

[fsujax]

maybe Sleiman will start building infill projects!