Current Courthouse

[ChriswUfGator]

In fact, as the result of this very idea you've been propounding, we went from our existing position of a quarter million convention visitors annually to almost zero, haven't we? Do you consider this a success? So at what point do we stop doing the same stuff over and over and wondering why it's not working?

You need to go back and re-read my posts.  NOWHERE did I defend Jax's efforts from 1976 until today.  They failed.  They did it half-assed.  They need to do it the right way.  You argue that we should quit the business alltogether, and that's where we disagree.

I've said 5 times in the last week on this board, we should have listened to Preston Haskel et al 30 years ago.  We didn't and guess who we're turning to again?  The guy that had it right the first time.

That may have been true back then, but the timing is gone now. The market has passed us by, and the industry is already fully developed and mature and built out in other places. What's the point in shutting the barn door after the horse has run off? Just to make ourselves feel better at an outrageous cost? The convention business has fully developed and matured and the infrastructure is already there, the major conventions have long term agreements and contracts with their facilities, etc., etc., etc., this goose is cooked stick a fork in it already.

And the supply side is oversaturated as it sits, there isn't some infinite amount of convention business floating out there, because every city (JAX is always last, right?) already jumped onto this silly bandwagon two decades ago. The convention business was the municipal dot-com rush of the 1990s, and with very few exceptions it almost invariably wound up in total failure. This same issue nearly bankrupted Jacksonville Beach.

So now we come along a couple decades after the "convention-center gold rush" when other municipalities are licking their wounds and trying to pay pack the bonds floated to build these empty $100mm+ convention halls in every city with more than 3 residents in it, and rather than learning from all of these collective mistakes we're instead going to just do the very same disastrous thing? Seriously?

Add to that the fact that we're now starting from nothing, compared to having been in the top 25 when this debate first got going 50 years ago, and it becomes doubly impossible for it to work. You are suggesting that we build yet another buggy-whip factory, but this time it's going to be all different, see, because we'll have Callaway design us some super-lightweight graphite composite buggy whips, and that'll surely make them fly off the shelves, right? I mean, come on, the market has passed us by. It's over now.

The time for this was 50 years ago. It didn't work out. It's time to focus on creating an actual, organic, sustainable local economy downtown that doesn't rely on 60-year old stale pies in the sky and one-trick ponies.

[ChriswUfGator]

I agree somewhat Chris, but I think that the business is rebuildable, but I don't think that its a case of putting the cart before the horse.  Instead, I think that the only successful strategy is in pursuing the lifestyle based conventions and learning how to help them to grow and develop.

Well I guess theoretically that'd be like managing to corner a specialized niche in a market in which we're otherwise ill-equipped to compete. I guess we can be the official buggy-whip of the Kentucky Derby and get the contract to outfit all the jockeys. Just seems unlikely that this will end well for us. Bottom line, what's your take on this new proposed convention center's prospects for triggering some architecture-induced resurgence in the convention business downtown? I've explained my position, I'm interested in yours.

[Wacca Pilatka]

It seems we can all reach a consensus that the bigger problem is not the construction of a larger and better located convention center but how Jacksonville is marketed (not just as a convention location)

I surely wouldn't deign to compare Jacksonville's portfolio of attractions to Orlando's or Las Vegas', but I'm not from Jacksonville and it's my favorite place to visit.

When I bring people to Jacksonville with me, I make sure to get them on the river, take them on an architectural tour (explaining the Prairie style and its significance, and tying in to the story of the fire), and we spend the predominance of the time in the urban core neighborhoods.  I also highlight the close proximity of unspoiled natural areas.  We go to Kingsley and Clark's Fish Camp.

Every person I've brought there comes away from that experience citing Jacksonville as a uniquely situated, distinctive, beautiful city.  Every one of them.  And I don't think they're just humoring me.

When you compare that kind of itinerary to what Stephen noted John Reyes was being forced to push, which sounds like it was centered on Ponte Vedra, it sounds like Jacksonville just does not market itself properly.

[tufsu1]

The only way I would support it, is if it were to be the third floor of a multimodal transit station based out of the prime osborne, and the city partnered with a new sports arena and hotel to make it happen.

why do we need a new sports arena?

[thelakelander]

As long as there is a desire to make the Prime Osborn into a transportation center, Bay Street into a vibrant district and our already subsidized convention center hotel (Hyatt) into a success, location is an issue. We've spent pages discussing the pros and cons of the convention business, but little thought has been given to how it would best fit into the downtown landscape.

[ChriswUfGator]

As long as there is a desire to make the Prime Osborn into a transportation center, Bay Street into a vibrant district and our already subsidized convention center hotel (Hyatt) into a success, location is an issue. We've spent pages discussing the pros and cons of the convention business, but little thought has been given to how it would best fit into the downtown landscape.

I agree, actually I think the downtown itself should be the primary focus. We need to create a functional downtown that is economically self-sustaining without these kind of one trick ponies. I mean a functioning local economy. That is going to mean bringing back industry, commerce, housing space (including the affordable housing that gives some people hives), and the infrastructure necessary to support that. This city lacks the draws to compete and function as a tourist economy but for some asinine reason that's exactly what our leadership has tried to do. We need density, vibrancy, and a functioning economy. All the other "pretty" stuff can take a backseat until that is accomplished.

[fieldafm]

Gosh darn you all, I have to put something else out there...

First off, the whole 'we failed so let's quit, we can't do it right' attitude is really kind of a weird concept to me.  That's like saying 'well, no company can be successful as a discount retailer b/c Wal Mart is just so good at it, so why bother?'  The American economic engine kind of survives on 'building a better mousetrap', so to speak.

Ok, so the folks that are against the convention center business(as opposed to doing it right, say competing with the likes of Mobile... who would compare very favorably IMO).  You gentleman often repeat many themes that contributed to the decline of downtown.  One of them is the commerce generated from out of town guests.  Correct?  So why now do you not want a dedicated convention/tourism bureau with the necessary tools to bring those out of town guests back into the urban core?  There's plenty of hotels downtown that need to be filled(some are subsidized in some way by guv'ment).

Everyone is saying 'well we shouldnt do it b/c its going to lose money'.  So does mass transit... and while the ROI for streetcars and Convention Centers are not equal(2 to 1 to about 4 to 1, sorry Ock the 6 to 1 number is kind of inflated), convention business has a net positive impact to our community in the form of out-of-town visitors, taxes(bed tax, sales tax), increased revenue from local merchants(ask Landing merchants how they liked this year's Gator Bowl), and heads in beds. 

I think saying that you're in favor of revitilizing the urban core by returning to what made the core successful in the past... but then saying well instead of two arms and two legs like we had the last time, lets just do it with two legs and one arms... is kind of self-defeating no?  Isn't that a them oft repeated here... how everything connects together?  It's a significant piece of the puzzle, and not including it would be to just repeat mistakes of the past.

I'm a little slow this morning(actually REALLY slow, thank you Cigar City Brewery and my old friend Mr Tangueray) so I don't think my message is being conveyed in a very concise and clear manner... but hopefully you are at least understanding my general themes.

Chris, I agree with a lot of the themes you highlighted on WHY we failed, so let's use that to make it right.  Quitting is something our city has done too much.  We live in a city that has vast potential, and we have the tools to realize that potential(I know very little in life, but this I am sure of).  The ROI is there, otherwise you wouldn't see our peer cities dive head first into this arena.  Let's do it right for once.

[fieldafm]

Every person I've brought there comes away from that experience citing Jacksonville as a uniquely situated, distinctive, beautiful city.  Every one of them.  And I don't think they're just humoring me.

When you compare that kind of itinerary to what Stephen noted John Reyes was being forced to push, which sounds like it was centered on Ponte Vedra, it sounds like Jacksonville just does not market itself properly.

Wacca, on both of these points, you could not be more correct!

[ChriswUfGator]

I get what you're saying field, I just get kind of skeptical whenever I start hearing these rumblings out of COJ that they're about take a 457'th crack at something that has ended in abject failure the other 456 times. This isn't about quitting, it's about wise use of funds and at what point do we stop throwing good money after bad? FWIW, this happens a lot around here, usually with the direct result of enriching the same little group of 5 or 6 people who constantly suckle the public teat.

Almost invariably when you analyze the situation it becomes apparent that the "new" plan is to blow ourselves up with TNT this time, since last time we used Dynamite and it didn't work out. Well no $h!t. I seriously can't even count the number of times this has happened here. All of the demolitions, vacancies, and the general parking situation downtown is the result of this process repeating itself over and over again. The courthouse, need I say more? The skyway. LaVilla. Brooklyn. Sugar Hill. Springfield. The one-way streets. The homeless. The list is quite literally endless.

At some point, we really need to sit back and do a self-assessment on how we handle civic projects in this City. Because, for us, they never work out. And when that happens, there's this cadre of people who always push to try again using a different type of eplosive this time. Or we'll redesign the buggy-whip out of titanium to make it sell. It's the whole approach that's ass-backwards, including the fact that COJ has continued wasting billions on exactly this type of project in order to generate downtown development that never arrives, because these things only work in a functional downtown, which ours is not.

Look at it this way, we have a nice car that's worth fixing but it is horrible condition. Let's say we found a 600 Pullman mercedes in a barn, it's beat up and has some parts missing, but worth fixing. At some point you'd like it to be a showpiece, but you also would like to actually use it to drive as well. So what do you do first on a limited budget? Are you going to spend your available money on window tint, new carpets, and an expensive stereo? Or are you going to first have the engine rebuilt so the car actually works??

Get where I'm going with this? What's the point in putting a $10k stereo into a car that doesn't run? The convention center and all of the similar ideas that are floated here locally are a moot point, because we have a dead downtown. These kind of things will never work until the city is functional by itself first. We on this board are not representative of the general public, because we can see downtown's potential. Most people are going to come here and realize that we have like 8 restaurants there, and most of them are only open for lunch, and that there's nothing to do, no people there, and that it sucks, and they got $50 worth of parking tickets for the privilege of having nothing to do. Do you think these people will be happy? Do you think they will come back?

This is not the time for this kind of thing. We need to focus on rebuilding the urban economy, and on getting people to live and work downtown. Fix the engine before wasting money on new carpets and a stereo, or you're still going to have a broken car. And guess what, nobody wants to ride in a broken car no matter how nice the stereo is.

[thelakelander]

Get where I'm going with this? What's the point in putting a $10k stereo into a car that doesn't run? The convention center and all of the similar ideas that are floated here locally are a moot point, because we have a dead downtown. These kind of things will never work until the city is functional by itself first.

To create a functional city, you have to locate things in a manner that breed that type of environment.  Our downtown doesn't work because of a lack of connectivity and clustering complementing uses together in a compact setting.  Part of relocating the convention center to the current courthouse site is the act of clustering and putting complementing uses together to create synergy and foot traffic (the things essential for a vibrant downtown).  A convention center hotel (Hyatt), entertainment (Bay Street/Florida Theater/river), retail/dining (Landing) are all uses that an exhibition hall could complement.  Considering the current courthouse site is within immediate walking distance of these existing subsidized uses, it makes sense to arrange them in a manner to where they can truly feed off each other and generate foot traffic.  The other side of this discussion is that the transportation element.  To properly revive this economic engine in downtown, the convention center needs to vacate the Prime Osborn site.  So this puts us in an either/or position.  (A) Relocate in a manner that better utilizes our existing investments, events and urban context, which allows for the return of transportation downtown or  (B) call it quits and get out the convention game altogether, thus potentially ruining the other struggling investments we're already subsidizing.

[Dog Walker]

It seems to me that we were once a successful convention town because all of the trains that traveled in the eastern half of the United States came through here.  When the trains went away, so did our convention business.

Orlando, Atlanta, San Francisco and Las Vegas get huge amounts of convention business because they have each have a huge number of airline flights coming to their airports everyday.

I don't think it is the quality (or lack thereof) of our convention center, downtown, entertainment district, etc. that makes us a poor candidate for a thriving convention business, but our relative lack of transportation options to get here.

[ChriswUfGator]

Get where I'm going with this? What's the point in putting a $10k stereo into a car that doesn't run? The convention center and all of the similar ideas that are floated here locally are a moot point, because we have a dead downtown. These kind of things will never work until the city is functional by itself first.

To create a functional city, you have to locate things in a manner that breed that type of environment.  Our downtown doesn't work because of a lack of connectivity and clustering complementing uses together in a compact setting.  Part of relocating the convention center to the current courthouse site is the act of clustering and putting complementing uses together to create synergy and foot traffic (the things essential for a vibrant downtown).  A convention center hotel (Hyatt), entertainment (Bay Street/Florida Theater/river), retail/dining (Landing) are all uses that an exhibition hall could complement.  Considering the current courthouse site is within immediate walking distance of these existing subsidized uses, it makes sense to arrange them in a manner to where they can truly feed off each other and generate foot traffic.  The other side of this discussion is that the transportation element.  To properly revive this economic engine in downtown, the convention center needs to vacate the Prime Osborn site.  So this puts us in an either/or position.  (A) Relocate in a manner that better utilizes our existing investments, events and urban context, which allows for the return of transportation downtown or  (B) call it quits and get out the convention game altogether, thus potentially ruining the other struggling investments we're already subsidizing.

I don't think calling it quits on the convention business would have any effect on anything else, it's not like we have any convention visitors to speak of anyway, is it? And regarding clustering, you and I totally agree. My point here is that you can cluster 5 buggy-whip factories, 10 Asbestos plants, maybe throw in a couple aluminum cookware factories and a snake oil store, and then tie it all together with some restaurants serving calf's brains and Beondegi (edible silkworms) and hell you could even throw in a streetcar, and it won't accomplish anything except wasting money. Because this isn't the 1950s anymore, and we're not in South Korea.

On the other hand, if you cluster light/medium industrial employers, supporting commercial activity, residents, infrastructure, and affordable housing and transportation, well that's a whole different story. I understand the concept of clustering, but it only goes so far if the underlying things being clustered don't work in the local environment.

We need to work on regenerating a sustainable and functional organic local economy in our dead downtown before a convention center or any of these other stale pies in the sky are ever going to work down there. Lake, people want something to do when they get here. "Build it and they will come" doesn't work unless there's some reason for them to come aside from just a building. Nobody will ride in a broken car, no matter how nice the stereo is. The real problems need to be addressed first.

[ChriswUfGator]

It seems to me that we were once a successful convention town because all of the trains that traveled in the eastern half of the United States came through here.  When the trains went away, so did our convention business.

Orlando, Atlanta, San Francisco and Las Vegas get huge amounts of convention business because they have each have a huge number of airline flights coming to their airports everyday.

I don't think it is the quality (or lack thereof) of our convention center, downtown, entertainment district, etc. that makes us a poor candidate for a thriving convention business, but our relative lack of transportation options to get here.

The convention business actually stuck with us and continued giving Jacksonville second chances through the 1960s, well after the automobile had supplanted rail transportation in this country. The problem is that the business went elsewhere when two local governments competed with each other to steal it from the private hotels, when at that time (exactly because of the decline of rail and ship travel) the convention business had become their main revenue stream.

The result was that the hotels closed, which had a tail-wags-the-dog effect and killed the convention business entirely because larger events no longer had sufficient hotel space and had to go elsewhere. In response, for the past 40 years, we've continued pouring money at this problem under the false assumption that if we just spend more money on another convention center, and another, and another, somehow all of the deficiencies in our competitive position in that business will just get overlooked. Well they won't. This is a business, not just a building!

[Dog Walker]

Trying to make a successful convention business here would be about like trying to build a successful snow removal business.  No demand, no business.  We've tried to artificially create the demand and it hasn't worked.

[thelakelander]

Its deeper than that.  All of these things should be designed to feed off of each other.  There are cities out there that don't have a huge number of airline flights a day that have been successful at making convention centers a part of vibrant downtown environment.  Simply put, everything revolves around connectivity and clustering complementing uses within a compact setting.  

On a macro level, DT Jax was economically anchored by the transportation industry (maritime & railroad).  The connectivity of these two economic anchors created opportunities for complementing uses (manufacturing, distribution, wholesale).  With the amount of people living in the area and employed in these industries (all within a compact setting), retail, dining, public market and hospitality uses became viable.  Add them up and you have a vibrant walkable community that people want to spend time in.  However, within this environment and on a micro level, the grand old hotels that hosted conventions during DT's heyday were also designed with connectivity and clustering of similar uses within their walls.  For example, not only were the George Washington and Robert Meyer in the heart of this walkable vibrant environment, they also had retail, dining and hotel rooms all designed and set up to feed off of each other.  

Today, we have a subsidized convention center hotel over a mile away from the exhibition hall, which happens to be in a train station.  In short, we've replaced urbanism with suburbanism in DT and wonder why things don't work despite the hundreds of millions we've spent in the area.  We've screwed up things on so many levels over the years, we could make a bestseller on how to destroy a city without nuclear warfare.  No matter what the subject is (ex. convention center, parks, mass transit, etc.), we're going to have to make the concepts of connectivity, complementing and clustering within a compact setting the top priority.