Current Courthouse

[fieldafm]

People want attractions

I also think you discount what Jacksonville has to offer visitors from the North(cold) and Southwest(dry).  It IS an attractive place to visit.  I'll buy you a beer at the Landing one weekend and we'll start talking to the visitors of our beautiful city.  I think you'd be surprised at the answers you'll get from visitors.  I do it twice a month and its always eye opening.  People DO like visiting here, even though our downtown isnt comparable to Atlanta. 

[KuroiKetsunoHana]

i don't really know what i'm talking about, but from where i sit, it looks like we missed the boat on conventions, plain and simple.  and now the cicty's basically tryïng to build another boat.  i don't think it can possibly work, largely because there are too many other cities that are already established convention locations.

iMO, the city should accept that we've lost that battle and move on to one we may actually be able to win--if there even are any at this point.

[ChriswUfGator]

The fact that competing markets were building centralized, large, and modern facilities that were funded by the same mechanism(bonds) funding the Prime Osborn.  Take a look around the country, what major convention center city has a private business that has built and runs a facility the size of the Prime Osborn or bigger(besides Sands in Vegas)?

All the major hotels in Orlando and Las Vegas have the capacity to host large conventions, and there is probably as much done privately as there is publicly. Unlike Jacksonville, these other cities encourage private participation rather than trying to steal the business.

Kind of shoots your assumption in the foot when you consider just a single Orlando hotel, the Peabody, has 300,000 square feet of convention space by itself, doesn't it?

http://www.peabodyorlando.com/press/fact_sheet.cfm

Again, what exactly are you basing this assumption on that private industry wouldn't have expanded to meet growing demand, if we hadn't submarined them and tried to steal their business first?

It is indeed a business that Jacksonville earnestly wants to be in(and for the record I think they should), but quite simply isn't doing it the right way.  The choices are now, as they were then... quit or do it right.  My interest stems from the fact that I used to work with a company that ran convention-styled events nationwide.  I may be a boring bean counter now, but in my former life I know what it takes to make or lose money in that business.

Well yes, but we lack the other competitive advantages you need to succeed in that business, and that isn't a 'fixable' problem insofar as you can't generate density, vibrancy, attractions, and a functional downtown economy, overnight just by building a building. Without those things we will continue to be a third rate destination that won't attract events, regardless of how much we spend on a convention center.

[ChriswUfGator]

i don't really know what i'm talking about, but from where i sit, it looks like we missed the boat on conventions, plain and simple.  and now the cicty's basically tryïng to build another boat.  i don't think it can possibly work, largely because there are too many other cities that are already established convention locations.

iMO, the city should accept that we've lost that battle and move on to one we may actually be able to win--if there even are any at this point.

Ex-f$&?!@g-actly correct.

[thelakelander]

Vic, in the case of San Diego, the opposite dynamic is what actually happened.  

Comicon grew so large that they were thinking about leaving San Diego.

San Diego expanded to handle Comicon.  Not the other way around.

We've faced this problem a couple of times in the past few years.  Our Comic-Cons grew up and left to go to places that could accommodate their needs.

Well, the problem is that their needs aren't just space. People want attractions and vibrancy when they get there.

In our case, that's the real problem here, and we'd be much better off focusing this energy and money on creating an actual functioning downtown economy first. Otherwise we can build the most expensive giant convention center on the planet and it will still sit empty because nobody will come here.

For the 345,678th time this isn't just a building, its a business. There is more to it than this, guys.

I definitely agree with the idea that creating a functional downtown should be top priority.  However, I'm not even arguing or evaluating the merits of the convention business.  My only real point is that what ever you do (conventions, mass transit, looking for a girl to take home, etc.), you get better utilization and benefit from it when its placed in a compact setting with adjacent complementing uses.  So in the event that money is put into a convention center.  It should follow the rules of connectivity, complementing uses and clustering so we can get the most bang for our buck.

[ChriswUfGator]

Vic, in the case of San Diego, the opposite dynamic is what actually happened. 

Comicon grew so large that they were thinking about leaving San Diego.

San Diego expanded to handle Comicon.  Not the other way around.

We've faced this problem a couple of times in the past few years.  Our Comic-Cons grew up and left to go to places that could accommodate their needs.

Well, the problem is that their needs aren't just space. People want attractions and vibrancy when they get there.

In our case, that's the real problem here, and we'd be much better off focusing this energy and money on creating an actual functioning downtown economy first. Otherwise we can build the most expensive giant convention center on the planet and it will still sit empty because nobody will come here.

For the 345,678th time this isn't just a building, its a business. There is more to it than this, guys.

I definitely agree with the idea that creating a functional downtown should be top priority.  However, I'm not even arguing or evaluating the merits of the convention business.  My only real point is that what ever you do (conventions, mass transit, looking for a girl to take home, etc.), you get better utilization and benefit from it when its placed in a compact setting with adjacent complementing uses.

Well then yeah we totally agree with each other on that point.

Unfortunately, when it comes to the convention business, our opportunity to not screw that up vanished four decades ago when we, well, screwed it up. Sad when you consider all we really had to do was leave it the hell alone, but we even managed to botch that. But that opportunity has come and gone, and now it's time to address the larger problems downtown and try and get back on our feet. Any attempt to revisit the convention business will fail, because that industry has already grown and solidified in other places, and also because at the end of the day nobody wants to visit a dead city.

[fieldafm]

My uncle was the food and beverage manager for the Marriot in Orlando and they have more convention space than the Prime Osborn does... I'm well aware.  But they built that AFTER Orlando built its first of two large convention centers.    

I applaud your research on the subject.  I think most of it is good.  Your assumptions going forward however I don't agree with... and there is no point trying to argue back and forth about it as you aren't going to change your mind, nor are you interested in even conceding any points.  

I made(and lost) money in the business.  And I made(and lost) money at the Prime Osborne.

Sad when you consider all we really had to do was leave it the hell alone, but we even managed to botch that.

You also fail to estimate the impact having a dedicating visitors bureau has on the convention business as a whole... not one major convention city doesn't have one.  I just think you're looking at this without exploring all of the complementing arms of the body.  You're right about the guts of the body... but a body with no arms or legs wont go anywhere

[tufsu1]

People want attractions

I also think you discount what Jacksonville has to offer visitors from the North(cold) and Southwest(dry).  It IS an attractive place to visit.  I'll buy you a beer at the Landing one weekend and we'll start talking to the visitors of our beautiful city.  I think you'd be surprised at the answers you'll get from visitors.  I do it twice a month and its always eye opening.  People DO like visiting here, even though our downtown isnt comparable to Atlanta. 

+1000

[ChriswUfGator]

My uncle was the food and beverage manager for the Marriot in Orlando and they have more convention space than the Prime Osborn does... I'm well aware.  But they built that AFTER Orlando built its first of two large convention centers.    

I applaud your research on the subject.  I think most of it is good.  Your assumptions going forward however I don't agree with... and there is no point trying to argue back and forth about it as you aren't going to change your mind, nor are you interested in even conceding any points.  

I made(and lost) money in the business.  And I made(and lost) money at the Prime Osborne.

Sad when you consider all we really had to do was leave it the hell alone, but we even managed to botch that.

You also fail to estimate the impact having a dedicating visitors bureau has on the convention business as a whole... not one major convention city doesn't have one.  I just think you're looking at this without exploring all of the complementing arms of the body.  You're right about the guts of the body... but a body with no arms or legs wont go anywhere

Unless I'm missing something, aren't you directly contradicting yourself? You just told me to give you examples of private hotels that have large convention spaces, arguing that private hotels wouldn't expand to accommodate growing demand. A rather silly argument. Then I pointed out that almost all of the major ones do, and that private business would expand as demand requires. Now you say you already knew that, despite having argued the opposite, and have rephrased your point to avoid the reality of private industry clearly expanding to meet convention demand separate from the existence of public convention facilities.

So you'll have to excuse me, but I'm really getting rather confused as to what your point is?

You can't have it both ways and still be right.

Further, taking the Peabody again as an example, that one hotel had more space than the original Orange County Convention Center did, that is clearly an example of a private business expanding to fill convention demand outside of whatever was happening with a public convention space.

[ChriswUfGator]

Your logic relies on the unlikely assumption that, as the business continued growing, the private market wouldn't have expanded capacity to meet demand. What are you basing that assumption on?

Take a look around the country, what major convention center city has a private business that has built and runs a facility the size of the Prime Osborn or bigger(besides Sands in Vegas.. and thats technically an apples to orange comparison as they have the business to support TWO large convention centers)?

That all seems rather clear, doesn't it?

What's the point in changing your argument around just because you don't happen to like that the answer to the question you originally asked doesn't support your view? You were the one who originally brought it up. It appears to me as though you've already made your mind up, and are having a difficult time finding logic to support a foregone conclusion that the facts show is faulty.

[stjr]

By example, here is Marriott World Center's "convention center" which looks to me to be at least double our largest room and maybe more for the entire complex.

 

* New 105,000 square-foot Cypress Ballroom (the largest pillar-free resort ballroom in the country)
    * 50,000 square-foot Palms Ballroom
    * 40,000 square-foot newly renovated Crystal Ballroom
    * 37,000 square-foot newly renovated Grand Ballroom
    * Four boardrooms and up to 73 breakout rooms
    * 14,000 square feet of dedicated space for Orlando hotel meeting rooms in the exclusive North Tower

The Palms Ballroom recently completed a cutting-edge renovation, connecting with the impressive, 105,000 square-foot Cypress Ballroom (home to the largest pillar-free resort ballroom in the nation) and offer planners 150,000 square-feet of contiguous exhibit space. The stunning ballroom boasts state-of-the-art technology, décor and functionality.

[thelakelander]

Is it possible that a public/private partnership with a hotel like Hyatt may be a possibility?  If they want to fill those +900 rooms, they're going to have to do something.

[fieldafm]

It appears to me as though you've already made your mind up, and are having a difficult time finding logic to support a foregone conclusion that the facts show is faulty.

Hardly.  I've been in the business.  I know what works and what doesn't and debating about it any further has become boring.  I had a slow day at work and added quite a few nickels of discussion on the board today.  I'm just simply not interested in adding any more.  Maybe if I was in a pissy mood I'd argue all day, but I'm not.

It appears to me as though you've already made your mind up, and are having a difficult time finding logic to support a foregone conclusion that the facts show is faulty.

As is my understanding, when the Civic Council introduces their CC plans... this will be a part of their recommendations.

[ChriswUfGator]

It appears to me as though you've already made your mind up, and are having a difficult time finding logic to support a foregone conclusion that the facts show is faulty.

Hardly.  I've been in the business.  I know what works and what doesn't and debating about it any further has become boring.  I had a slow day at work and added quite a few nickels of discussion on the board today.  I'm just simply not interested in adding any more.  Maybe if I was in a pissy mood I'd argue all day, but I'm not.

It appears to me as though you've already made your mind up, and are having a difficult time finding logic to support a foregone conclusion that the facts show is faulty.

As is my understanding, when the Civic Council introduces their CC plans... this will be a part of their recommendations.

Well this convention center would mark at least the third time (not counting Jacksonville Beach's near-bankrupting disaster) that our local government has floated this idea that the way to approach the issue is to spend even more money on it. This approach has been applied for the past 50 years, and it hasn't exactly worked out so far has it? In fact, as the result of this very idea you've been propounding, we went from our existing position of a quarter million convention visitors annually to almost zero, haven't we? Do you consider this a success? So at what point do we stop doing the same stuff over and over and wondering why it's not working?

And for the record, this is just a reasoned debate, it's not personal. We can disagree cordially, I don't see why this requires anyone to be in a bad mood, and I'm certainly not. We seem to have lost the capacity for cordial discourse in this society, I am reminded frequently that it seems most people only like you when you agree with them, and I don't quite understand that. Having grown up in a family of several generations of lawyers, you tear each other up in court and go out for a beer afterwards. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't like you, or I'm in a bad mood. How else is anyone supposed to resolve an issue if we can't have reasoned debate?

[fieldafm]

In fact, as the result of this very idea you've been propounding, we went from our existing position of a quarter million convention visitors annually to almost zero, haven't we? Do you consider this a success? So at what point do we stop doing the same stuff over and over and wondering why it's not working?

You need to go back and re-read my posts.  NOWHERE did I defend Jax's efforts from 1976 until today.  They failed.  They did it half-assed.  They need to do it the right way.  You argue that we should quit the business alltogether, and that's where we disagree.

I've said 5 times in the last week on this board, we should have listened to Preston Haskel et al 30 years ago.  We didn't and guess who we're turning to again?  The guy that had it right the first time.