Current Courthouse

[ChriswUfGator]

Chris...it is ok to politely disagree on this site...but really, calling my opinions asinine...how does that help anyone?

Note that I didn't bother to debate your assertion that Daytona is far better than Jax...even though that would likely be seen as a stretch by many people.

Fair enough, I removed that.

If you want to compare Daytona/Ormomd to downtown Jacksonville, then sorry but you're gonna lose that one. There is really no comparison to a bunch of vacant buildings and closed storefronts. Say what you will about Daytona, the fact is that it has a lot of people, businesses, things to do, etc. You really think downtown Jacksonville compares favorably?

[fieldafm]

So what happened? Well, first, Jacksonville Beach commissioned a study on how to generate visitor growth, which resulted in the construction of the Jacksonville Beach Convention Center. The game plan, in summary, was that downtown Jacksonville had a booming convention business that brought in 200k+ direct convention visitors and another couple hundred thousand indirect visitors (wives, children, family, friends, etc, of visitors, plus presenters, etc.) and Jacksonville Beach was quite literally going to steal that business.

COJ responded by designing the planned original Memorial Coliseum as "flex space" where half the building's purpose was a performance venue, and the other half (accomplished through removable stages, the incorporation of an underlying convention floor, and retractable seating) of its purpose was that it would serve as the convention center. Both the JAX beach and Coliseum structures were completed, and the two cities began competing ferociously against each other for the business that had formerly belonged to private industry.

You have an interesting summation of the subject.  About 68% I agree with.

One quick point.  Both the Beaches exhibition hall space(now demolished along with Crab Pot... which has been replaced by the wildly successful Jax Beach Town Center thanks to the public-private partnership b/w Jax Beach and Sleiman Enterprises... and yet our current administration thinks its a good idea to publicly feud with the guy over downtown revitilization) and the Coliseum suffered from the SAME problems the Prime Osborne does.... connectivity.

But I disagree with you here

all we had to was LEAVE IT ALONE.

While other cities were biulding out and modernizing their convention facilities... Jax HAD to either bow out of the convention business(due to not having enough adequate space and modern ammenities) or choose to compete.  Unfortunately, the efforts at competing were the problem... not the decision TO compete.  You can't stand still while your competitors are moving forward and expect your business to grow.  Jacksonville's problem was their solution sucked. 

Case in point, Daytona recently expanded their space within the decade. 

[vicupstate]

Chris, I think your concerns about a convention center have merit and appear to be well researched.

Give me a break.  He has produce NO FACTS WHATSOEVER to bolster his cynical rantings.

Charlotte, Indianapolis, Baltimore and yes, San Diego (in 1987 !!) have all used convention centers to bolster their core and their profile as cities.  

Exactly what did San Diego have going for it in 1983 that Jax doesn't or COULDN'T in 2011?

Savannah built one when it ALREADY had millions of tourists and a very successful Downtown.  I guess they all just wasted there money.

What city of any size, besides JAX, has all but ignored this element for economic development?

San Diego voters approved a measure to fund construction of a new convention center in 1983 on land owned by the Port of San Diego. Construction of the original building began in March 1987 and was completed in November 1989. An expansion which doubled the gross square footage of the facility was completed in September 2001. In September 2008 the center took steps to acquire adjacent property for an additional expansion.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_Convention_Center

The Gaslamp Quarter is a 16½ block historical neighborhood in downtown San Diego, California. The area is listed as a historic district on the National Register of Historic Places as Gaslamp Quarter Historic District. Its main period of development began in 1867, when Alonzo Horton bought the land in hopes of creating a new city center closer to the bay, and chose 5th Avenue as its main street. After a period of urban decay, the neighborhood underwent urban renewal in the 1980s and 1990s, and is today an energetic business and entertainment district.

Panoramic view of the Gaslamp Quarter from the San Diego Convention Center, with the Hilton Gaslamp Quarter in the center and Petco Park and the Metropolis at the Omni Hotel to the far right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslamp_Quarter,_San_Diego

You seriously have no clue what you're talking about.

San Diego's center was approved in 1983, but wasn't actually built and opened until 1989, originally a pretty modest facility. It became the beast it is now following a 2001 expansion. The thing you're missing (at this point I think you're missing it intentionally since I've said this all before) is that San Diego's convention success traces back to hosting Comicon from 1970 onwards, when they didn't even have the convention center yet. And the only reason San Diego landed that event initially is because the founder had moved there from Detroit. Their convention center was actually built in large part TO HOST THAT PRE-EXISTING EVENT. It remains their single largest event to this day, and has more to do with the center's success than anything the city has done.

I don't care how many $400mm buildings we build, that success is not replicable in Jacksonville.

And regarding facts, my entire argument is based on fact, which you'd already know if you'd spent 12 seconds actually researching any of this instead of making general sniping statements and demonstrating your proficiency at posting generic wikipedia links.

The SD Center has 615,00 sq ft of Exhibition space.  If you had READ the quotation, the expansion in 2001 DOUBLED the size. So In 2001 it went form 300,000 to 600,000.

PRime Osburn has 78,000 sq. ft exhibition space, LESS THAN 1/3 the SIZE of SD's ORIGINAL size, and about 12% of it's current size.

How can you develop convention business with no place sufficiently big enough to hold them?

[vicupstate]

BTW, the last CVB Leader in JAX came from, you guessed it, San Diego.  I guess after several years of no action, he must have seen the writing on the wall that Jax was NOT serious about tourism deveoopment. 

[ChriswUfGator]

Chris, I think your concerns about a convention center have merit and appear to be well researched.

Give me a break.  He has produce NO FACTS WHATSOEVER to bolster his cynical rantings.

Charlotte, Indianapolis, Baltimore and yes, San Diego (in 1987 !!) have all used convention centers to bolster their core and their profile as cities.  

Exactly what did San Diego have going for it in 1983 that Jax doesn't or COULDN'T in 2011?

Savannah built one when it ALREADY had millions of tourists and a very successful Downtown.  I guess they all just wasted there money.

What city of any size, besides JAX, has all but ignored this element for economic development?

San Diego voters approved a measure to fund construction of a new convention center in 1983 on land owned by the Port of San Diego. Construction of the original building began in March 1987 and was completed in November 1989. An expansion which doubled the gross square footage of the facility was completed in September 2001. In September 2008 the center took steps to acquire adjacent property for an additional expansion.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_Convention_Center

The Gaslamp Quarter is a 16½ block historical neighborhood in downtown San Diego, California. The area is listed as a historic district on the National Register of Historic Places as Gaslamp Quarter Historic District. Its main period of development began in 1867, when Alonzo Horton bought the land in hopes of creating a new city center closer to the bay, and chose 5th Avenue as its main street. After a period of urban decay, the neighborhood underwent urban renewal in the 1980s and 1990s, and is today an energetic business and entertainment district.

Panoramic view of the Gaslamp Quarter from the San Diego Convention Center, with the Hilton Gaslamp Quarter in the center and Petco Park and the Metropolis at the Omni Hotel to the far right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslamp_Quarter,_San_Diego

You seriously have no clue what you're talking about.

San Diego's center was approved in 1983, but wasn't actually built and opened until 1989, originally a pretty modest facility. It became the beast it is now following a 2001 expansion. The thing you're missing (at this point I think you're missing it intentionally since I've said this all before) is that San Diego's convention success traces back to hosting Comicon from 1970 onwards, when they didn't even have the convention center yet. And the only reason San Diego landed that event initially is because the founder had moved there from Detroit. Their convention center was actually built in large part TO HOST THAT PRE-EXISTING EVENT. It remains their single largest event to this day, and has more to do with the center's success than anything the city has done.

I don't care how many $400mm buildings we build, that success is not replicable in Jacksonville.

And regarding facts, my entire argument is based on fact, which you'd already know if you'd spent 12 seconds actually researching any of this instead of making general sniping statements and demonstrating your proficiency at posting generic wikipedia links.

The SD Center has 615,00 sq ft of Exhibition space.  If you had READ the quotation, the expansion in 2001 DOUBLED the size. So In 2001 it went form 300,000 to 600,000.

PRime Osburn has 78,000 sq. ft exhibition space, LESS THAN 1/3 the SIZE of SD's ORIGINAL size, and about 12% of it's current size.

How can you develop convention business with no place sufficiently big enough to hold them?

You really aren't understanding how this works. San Diego has one event that uses the whole space, and they actually built the building to accommodate that PRE-existing business (a fact which I notice you're intentionally ignoring), they had the business and then built the facility to cater to it. "Build it and they will come" doesn't work, and San Diego actually proves that, as the reason they have been successful is that they had the business before they built the building. Keep ignoring this all you want, everyone else isn't. And FWIW, their book of business is mostly comprised of smaller conventions that would fit in our space. That's not why they don't come here. This isn't just a building, its a business.

[stjr]

If it is true that the current convention center and hotel ballrooms can meet most convention center needs, then we need to consider what is accomplished by building a new center.  Is it simply to better locate it?  Is it to build it larger to host bigger conventions we can't reach for now?

If it is the former, then I am inclined to agree with those that say we need to develop the area around the existing center as that would seem to be more cost effective and driven by private investment.  By the way, it was always intended that that development take place when Osborne was selected.  Particularly, a hotel dedicated to servicing the center.  (That it didn't happen is another story in the City's mismanaging these projects.) So, why risk millions of taxpayer dollars just to move the facility a few blocks closer to the core of downtown, albeit to what is probably a superior site, for marginal financial gains.  The existing site, with improved connections to downtown, such as street cars and proper infill, could overcome many of its locational shortcomings to the benefit of all.  (I might add the fact that the Skyway fails to do this with any significant impact currently says much about why I think the Skyway has its own issues.  But, that's for other threads.)

If the reason for a new center is the latter, a larger facility, then I am concerned about the most commonly discussed plans for siting it at the soon to be former courthouse as I think that site does not facilitate enough of an enlargement to stand the test of decades of time that the building should serve us.  If we want to appeal to that last 10 to 30% of conventions we can't reach now, let's do it right, and build a building large enough to make a significant leap now, but also one that can make future leaps later, as the city and convention business grows.  Otherwise, I think we are just repeating the mistakes of the current center and 20 years from now we will be having this discussion all over again.

If there are other compelling reasons to move the center, such as to convert the Osborne into an intermodal mass transit center, then the move should be evaluated, and maybe subsidized, with respect to such benefits.

[ChriswUfGator]

So what happened? Well, first, Jacksonville Beach commissioned a study on how to generate visitor growth, which resulted in the construction of the Jacksonville Beach Convention Center. The game plan, in summary, was that downtown Jacksonville had a booming convention business that brought in 200k+ direct convention visitors and another couple hundred thousand indirect visitors (wives, children, family, friends, etc, of visitors, plus presenters, etc.) and Jacksonville Beach was quite literally going to steal that business.

COJ responded by designing the planned original Memorial Coliseum as "flex space" where half the building's purpose was a performance venue, and the other half (accomplished through removable stages, the incorporation of an underlying convention floor, and retractable seating) of its purpose was that it would serve as the convention center. Both the JAX beach and Coliseum structures were completed, and the two cities began competing ferociously against each other for the business that had formerly belonged to private industry.

You have an interesting summation of the subject.  About 68% I agree with.

One quick point.  Both the Beaches exhibition hall space(now demolished along with Crab Pot... which has been replaced by the wildly successful Jax Beach Town Center thanks to the public-private partnership b/w Jax Beach and Sleiman Enterprises... and yet our current administration thinks its a good idea to publicly feud with the guy over downtown revitilization) and the Coliseum suffered from the SAME problems the Prime Osborne does.... connectivity.

But I disagree with you here

all we had to was LEAVE IT ALONE.

While other cities were biulding out and modernizing their convention facilities... Jax HAD to either bow out of the convention business(due to not having enough adequate space and modern ammenities) or choose to compete.  Unfortunately, the efforts at competing were the problem... not the decision TO compete.  You can't stand still while your competitors are moving forward and expect your business to grow.  Jacksonville's problem was their solution sucked.  

Case in point, Daytona recently expanded their space within the decade.  

Your logic relies on the unlikely assumption that, as the business continued growing, the private market wouldn't have expanded capacity to meet demand. What are you basing that assumption on?

[tufsu1]

Vic, in the case of San Diego, the opposite dynamic is what actually happened.  

Comicon grew so large that they were thinking about leaving San Diego.

San Diego expanded to handle Comicon.  Not the other way around.

so they doubled the size of the convention center for just a few days a year....how is that a good investment?

fact is they were able to expand partially because of Comicon...and have used it to grow their overall convention business.

guess that means "build it and they will come" actually worked!

[ChriswUfGator]

Vic, in the case of San Diego, the opposite dynamic is what actually happened. 

Comicon grew so large that they were thinking about leaving San Diego.

San Diego expanded to handle Comicon.  Not the other way around.

so they doubled the size of the convention center for just 4 days a year....how is that a good investment?

fact is they were able to expand partially because of Comicon...and have used it to grow their overall convention business.

guess that means "build it and they will come" actually worked!

So a city with a strong pre-existing convention business that later expanded its space the to meet already-existing demand proves that "build it and they will come" works exactly how?

[tufsu1]

The expansion is used by Comicon AND OTHER conventions

they built the extra space and then were able to fill it.

[tufsu1]

well smart guy....convention facilities are often used by multiple events at the same time....

In fact, I organized a conference at the Tampa Convention Center last fall...for one of the days we were basically the only ones in the whole building....but our first and last days overlapped with other meetings.

And according to the info. below, the center is achieving occupancy rates of 75%....pretty hard to do that if you're 100% for 1 week a year and 50% for the other 51.

http://www.visitsandiego.com/pressroom/details.cfm/newsid/89

[thelakelander]

If it is true that the current convention center and hotel ballrooms can meet most convention center needs, then we need to consider what is accomplished by building a new center.  Is it simply to better locate it?  Is it to build it larger to host bigger conventions we can't reach for now?

If it is the former, then I am inclined to agree with those that say we need to develop the area around the existing center as that would seem to be more cost effective and driven by private investment.  By the way, it was always intended that that development take place when Osborne was selected.  Particularly, a hotel dedicated to servicing the center.  (That it didn't happen is another story in the City's mismanaging these projects.) So, why risk millions of taxpayer dollars just to move the facility a few blocks closer to the core of downtown, albeit to what is probably a superior site, for marginal financial gains.

Growing the convention center at the current site would come at the expense of using that site for what it was intentionally built for......transportation.

[thelakelander]

Vic, in the case of San Diego, the opposite dynamic is what actually happened. 

Comicon grew so large that they were thinking about leaving San Diego.

San Diego expanded to handle Comicon.  Not the other way around.

We've faced this problem a couple of times in the past few years.  Our Comic-Cons grew up and left to go to places that could accommodate their needs.

[ChriswUfGator]

Vic, in the case of San Diego, the opposite dynamic is what actually happened. 

Comicon grew so large that they were thinking about leaving San Diego.

San Diego expanded to handle Comicon.  Not the other way around.

We've faced this problem a couple of times in the past few years.  Our Comic-Cons grew up and left to go to places that could accommodate their needs.

Well, the problem is that their needs aren't just space. People want attractions and vibrancy when they get there.

In our case, that's the real problem here, and we'd be much better off focusing this energy and money on creating an actual functioning downtown economy first. Otherwise we can build the most expensive giant convention center on the planet and it will still sit empty because nobody will come here.

For the 345,678th time this isn't just a building, its a business. There is more to it than this, guys.

[fieldafm]

Your logic relies on the unlikely assumption that, as the business continued growing, the private market wouldn't have expanded capacity to meet demand. What are you basing that assumption on?

The fact that competing markets were building centralized, large, and modern facilities that were funded by the same mechanism(bonds) funding the Prime Osborn.  Take a look around the country, what major convention center city has a private business that has built and runs a facility the size of the Prime Osborn or bigger(besides Sands in Vegas.. and thats technically an apples to orange comparison as they have the business to support TWO large convention centers)?

For the 345,678th time this isn't just a building, its a business. There is more to it than this, guys.

It is indeed a business that Jacksonville earnestly wants to be in(and for the record I think they should), but quite simply isn't doing it the right way.  The choices are now, as they were then... quit or do it right.  My interest stems from the fact that I used to work with a company that ran convention-styled events nationwide.  I may be a boring bean counter now, but in my former life I know what it takes to make or lose money in that business.