How much is Duval County's school system driving sprawl?

[simms3]

1) Most private schools are actually affordable.  Tuition is usually in the range of $3-8K.

2) The cost to send a kid to public school is on average far more than to send a kid to private school.  The average to send a kid to a public school grades 6-12 in NJ is just under $15K.  A voucher of half of that would get a kid in many many many decent private schools.  I don't know what the costs to send a kid to public school are in FL, but I know that teachers at Bolles and Episcopal have far superior backgrounds than teachers at public schools and make significantly less ($30-45K).

3) Government in education is the problem.  I think we agree on that.  The system is so flawed, why would any taxpayer want to throw MORE money at it.  Until the system is fixed, taxpayers will be moving to less bureaucratic school districts in the suburbs, homeschooling, or sending their kids to private schools.

4) Also agree: many parents don't seem to give a damn.  In voucher programs that have worked before (DC comes to mind), there were still parents who didn't even give the system a try.  Gee mom, thanks for caring about me.  These parents aren't even taxpayers.  They have no skin in the game.

[Springfielder]

I don't know why you think that teachers at those schools have far superior backgrounds, that's simply not fact. Many of those in the public schools have at least 1 masters (many have 2) and there's many that have and/or are working on their doctorates. As for the pay, Florida is one (if not the lowest) when it comes to teacher salaries. You need to take a look at the pay grades http://www.duvalschools.org/static/wearedcps/employeeinfo/teacher_salary_schedule.asp

As for many families being able to afford and who are sending their children to private schools...again, though the cost may seem reasonable to you, it's basically for the upper middle class on up...not for the vast majority. Not to overlook, the families with more than one child. Without having the figures in front of me, I don't recall how much it is exactly that the schools are given per student....still, it's more than the majority of private schools that I know of.

[simms3]

^^^^Just checked it out.  Looks like a similar if not slightly higher pay scale than teachers at Episcopal.   If that's low for public schools, then wow!  (BTW, pay for my college professors is transparent, and I had 4 professors making over $300K a year excluding benefits and travel).  Wow.

I highly doubt that the average public school teacher is going to have the same credentials as the average teacher at a top private school.  Maybe your average private school, sure.  (and why are teacher problems in public schools always in the news?)

Also, I just looked at tuition for several area private schools.  I found ranges from from $3,060 to $9,720 for almost every school, and less for additional siblings.  These are reasonable prices, despite what you may think.  It probably costs somewhere between $7-10K to send a kid to a Duval public school.  Of course most families can't afford a nationally known private college prep school or a boarding school, but most private schools are actually rather cheap.

If families were given in the form of a voucher what it costs to send their children to a public school to be able to either choose to try to send them to a private school where they can have more of a say over what their children are taught or continue sending them to public schools, what's the problem with that?  If our goal is to provide a better education for our children, and a better education is usually had in a private school or a charter school, then shouldn't we look at that?  The Netherlands and other European countries actually have voucher programs, and as a result their public schools are so much better than ours because they have to compete.

[dougskiles]

How does Orange Park High's scores compare with MHS and JCHS.  Also, how do elementary/middle schools in these areas compare?

         Reading   Math   Writing    Science   % Free & Reduced Lunch    % Minority
MHS       58         82       88          58                     18                          36
MTHS     70         91       95          58                       3                            6
OPHS     47         76        83         39                      33                          47
Lee        31         63       86          37                      55                          76

Orange Park scored better than Lee but not as good as Mandarin.  Clear correlation between scores and % Free & Reduced/% Minority.

[Springfielder]

Teachers aren't paid nearly enough for all they do and the hours they have to put in each day, each week, each month to even come close to keeping on top of what's expected of them.

When you look at the majority of families that have school aged children, they could not afford to send their child to private school. Clearly we will have to agree to disagree on this, as you are firm with believing that most could, if they wanted...where I do not...so no compromising

We also disagree on the qualifications and pay scales...again, there's no compromising

Perhaps you think that parents dictate what their child is taught instead of what the school system must teach to be in compliance with not only the FCAT, the NCLB/federal government, but also the Florida sunshine standards. Private schools are not held to the same standards. Without knowing the ins and outs of the school systems in the Netherlands and/or other European countries, I cannot give my opinion as to whether or not they are better or not, it would depend on all that's required and all that governs them.

Our public school systems, IMO, would be much, much better if they got rid of the standardized testing, if they canned NCLB and actually refused to allow children to do as they please and hold them and parents accountable.

[Springfielder]

Clear correlation between scores and % Free & Reduced/% Minority.

BINGO, this is exactly what I'm talking about, and for the majority of our schools, that minority, is the majority. And before someone jumps on me for that....it's not all a racial issue...it's a culture and an economic one

[dougskiles]

Also, how do elementary/middle schools in these areas compare?

                   Reading   Math   Writing    Science   % Free & Reduced Lunch    % Minority
Mandarin Oaks   88         90       95          63                      33                          35
Julington Creek  96         97        92         86                       7                            5
West Riverside   67         69       78          52                      67                          62
Ortega             66         76        74         43                      64                          67

About the same for elementary schools, although it is interesting to see that Mandarin Oaks scored higher than the Mandarin HS with a similar % free & reduced lunch and % minority.  West Riverside is Avondale's school and Ortega Elementary is Ortega's school.  Pretty obvious that the people who live in those areas have no faith in the public schools and plenty of money for private school.

[dougskiles]

Let's suppose that teacher salaries were double what they are now.  How would that effect the work force?  Would there be more competition for the job? Would there be less tolerance for a job poorly done?

Now the question for the teachers would be this:  If you were offered a significant increase in pay, would you be willing to give up some of the security that you have?  In others words, you would get demoted or fired for poor performance.

For the record, I am in favor of significantly increasing teacher pay because I think it would have a dramatic effect.  I don't see it as some like to say "throwing money at the problem".  We are willing to pay pediatricians big bucks to provide health care for our children - why not teachers?

[simms3]

If everyone was given a $7,500 voucher to choose between public and private, everyone could afford private (and even more private schools would be set up to cater to the increased demand).  That's a fact.  I doubt it costs the taxpayers much less to send a kid to Duval public schools, if not more.  Many Catholic schools charge only $3,500 or so (for Catholic students and not *much* more for non-Catholic), though they have the Church's backing.

Springfielder, do you know what teachers at private schools make?  I was shown a fin. report detailing that once.  It was low.  Lower at Episcopal (or roughly equivalent) than the pay scale you provided.  I can only guess that it would be even lower at other private schools.  Anyhow, some of the worst school districts in the country have some of the highest paid teachers.  Teachers work from about 8-2:00 in Chicago for 3/4 of the year, produce little to no results, and are paid an average of $75K because they are backed by the CTU?  (Chicago Teachers' Union)  If I lived in Chicago and paid taxes to support that non-sense, I might pack up and move over it.  It's ridiculous.  People get paid what the market thinks they're worth.  Most of my high school teachers had masters from top colleges, and some were even former college professors or private sector guys.  They taught us because they had joy in doing so.  They weren't trying to become rich (which seems to be the goal of the teachers' unions).

Vouchers may not be the end all be all answer, but they are a start.  Charter schools are another big start (and seem to be popular everywhere but Florida, where they are needed most).

And people in Ortega can send their children to Stockton Elementary in Ortega Forest.  It's supposed to be good for an elementary school.  Nobody at Ortega Elementary is actually from the neighborhood.  They are all bussed in.  A lot of neighborhood moms have recently begun to help out at the school, and all I hear are horror reports about how dismal it is (and I have heard some shocking things about some of the teachers there).  I am sure that it's ok that local moms are helping out only now because the school board is so desperate, but the reality is that school systems are big bureaucracies that are inefficient at best.  Politics gets in the way of helping the kids learn.  Who cares that Under God is in the Pledge of Allegiance?  Look at all the controversies and crazy crap that happens all over the country in public schools, and you begin to realize they are mirror images of the problems that plague our government.  Parents can't get involved with most public schools like they can private schools (where it is encouraged parents get involved).  That's frustrating to the parents left in the inner cores that still care about their children's education (seems like most parents nowadays have either given up or don't care).

[Springfielder]

Let's suppose that teacher salaries were double what they are now.  How would that effect the work force?  Would there be more competition for the job? Would there be less tolerance for a job poorly done?

Now the question for the teachers would be this:  If you were offered a significant increase in pay, would you be willing to give up some of the security that you have?  In others words, you would get demoted or fired for poor performance.

For the record, I am in favor of significantly increasing teacher pay because I think it would have a dramatic effect.  I don't see it as some like to say "throwing money at the problem".  We are willing to pay pediatricians big bucks to provide health care for our children - why not teachers?

The pay grades have nothing to do with the evaluations given by the school principal, nor does or could it impact any or no tolerance for poorly performing. All of that is covered under the evaluation (results) given by the principal. Even that isn't done well, as there's advance notice as to when they'd be in the room to observe you...and most, IMO, are nothing but a show. I have always felt that the principal should just come in at any time to observe. That would give them a better idea as to how things are going. Not only that, but of course, the overall performance of the classroom, the data and other things.

Higher pay rates would, help with recruiting...no doubt about that.

To answer the question about if given a significant increase, would teachers be willing to give up securities (ie: being demoted, or fired) This could not happen, no matter the pay grade or increase. There is no demotion for a teacher, you're either a teacher or you're not...and that is via their certification through the state. Unless you're a new hire (of whom can be terminated within the first 90 days without cause, or simply not invited back the next school year) terminating a teacher is based upon many factors, such as the reason, whether or not it involves criminal action, and other factors. There's also the union/contract and the progressive discipline plan. So pay rates have nothing at all to do with firing anyone.

[dougskiles]

Maybe charter schools and vouchers will lead to the answer.  Nobody knows for sure until we try something different.  My original intent of this topic was that I don't think we are doing enough - and - we're not talking about it enough.  To accept that many of the children in our city are getting a substandard eduction is sad.  It is so easy for people with the means to pay for private school to simply ignore the problems that are occuring elsewhere.  But we all pay the price in ways that perhaps we aren't all aware.  Continued sprawl, difficulty in attracting new business, and crime are just a few of the issues that can be attributed to a poorly performing public school system.

[Springfielder]

It's not that it's so much that it's poorly performing schools, it's so easy to blame the 'schools' when that means, teachers. There's a lot of problems, but you seem to be overlooking the reality of this...the children and the parents...once again, there's no accountability for them...just teachers.

There's excellent teachers, most of them are hard working, dedicated people. And yes, there's some lousy ones who could care less about the kids or teaching them...and I would like to see them gone. You can suggest that vouchers will cure the ills of the public school system, but like I said, you're skirting the foundation of what's wrong with the system.

[dougskiles]

There's a lot of problems, but you seem to be overlooking the reality of this...the children and the parents...once again, there's no accountability for them...just teachers.

I agree 100%.  But what can the rest of us do about it?  Do we just accept that reality?  How do we make those parents and kids accountable?  Particularly when, as simms3 put it "they have no skin in the game".  The current system is causing problems that we all have to deal with, so I feel that we are all accountable.

I know very little about the education system aside from my involvement at my children's schools.  I would like to hear more from those of you who are employed in the system (educators, administrators - hopefully even school board members).

Similar to the great articles that we get from Lakelander, Ocklawaha, et al, about successful transportation systems, are there any who could provide articles about successful public education systems?  And more specifically those with inner city neighborhoods.

[Springfielder]

First of all, I commend you for being involved at your childs school. And just so you know..you are discussing this with someone who works there. I didn't want to say that earlier, because I didn't want to appear like I was being closed minded on the subject.

As I said, the main problem that I see...is how nobody wants to come out and say it...that the schools are out of control, because nobody wants to stand up to these arrogant parents of kids that are chronic behavioral issues. The district has a code of conduct and for the most part, it's ignored because they don't want to suspend these violators which would force the parent to do something and/or they don't want the kids home alone...as if that should be the schools problem.

You can't successfully teach because of the chronic behavior issues that constantly disrupt the class, and the teacher is blamed, not the out of control child or the parent.

What do we, as society, do? Stand up and force the districts to stop babying these kids, stop allowing them to disrupt the classrooms, force the districts to stand by their code of conduct...force the districts to hold the children and parents accountable.

[tufsu1]

Duval doesn't just have an issue with parents putting kids in private schools...there is also the magnet shools

How about we check the stats at Stanton & Paxon against Creekside & Bartram Trail