How much is Duval County's school system driving sprawl?

[dougskiles]

Why do so many people choose to live in St Johns, Clay or Nassau and then drive to work in Jacksonville?

I'm thinking it has as much to do with our school system as anything.  Most families I know who left Duval did so for their children's education.

[simms3]

Plays a huuuuggeee role.  You're right.  The sunbelt is attracting families (as opposed to single, young, professionals who go to NYC, Chi, LA, etc).  Families usually can't afford private school, and they don't want to send their children to Lee, White, Raines, Ribault, Wolfson, Sandalwood, Jackson, etc.  Why would they?  The schools in St. Johns and Clay are leagues better, housing is still cheap compared to where they are coming from (and super cheap in Clay), and traffic/distance to work is not bad enough to justify coming closer in.

[dougskiles]

All true - but we don't talk much about how to improve public schools in Duval on this forum.  At least not that I've seen in the short time that I have been a member.

There was a push a while back by the mayor to make the school board appointed instead of elected.  I heard that the reason was because appointed school boards have been more effective at turning around school systems than elected school boards.

What say the smart folks on MJ about that?

[Charles Hunter]

IIRC it would require amending the Fla. Constitution, which requires elected school boards.  Of course, with Dark Lord Voldemort in the Governor's mansion, and his expressed desire to dismantle public schools in Florida, that may not be a huge hurdle.

[JeffreyS]

I have been posting this for years on this site.  It is the thing that moved the young families out. 

[simms3]

Not to inject "too much" politics into a commonly pronounced theory about why public schools do not usually hold a candle to their private school counterparts is that public schools actually used to be damn good until the federal government started meddling in secondary education in the 70s (hint, I am not talking about integration just so there's no confusion).

Also, I just want to point out that some of the worst school systems in the country have large teachers' unions and high average salaries.  In Chicago the average teacher makes close to $75K with a quarter of public school faculty making over 6 figures.  Most private schools pay their teachers far less, but produce far superior results.  You'll find that pay of professors at Bolles and Episcopal are between $30-45K.  These professors did not necessarily go to a school to "learn how to teach," but they are qualified to teach what they do and many if not most have masters or Ph.D's in their respective fields.

I think the problem with public schools is that they are part of a bureaucracy that enforces one size fits all rules/curriculum.  The local community and the parent should have more say over what is taught and what goes on in their local neighborhood schools, but then again do kids even attend their "neighborhood school" anymore?  It's all messed up.

Most private schools have an admissions barrier to entry in tests and aptitude, primary school grades, etc, but I really think a voucher "type" system should be offered.  Kids get an allotment of tax money already, why not give the parents more of a choice?  If the inner city neighborhood schools are not going to perform and someone's kid is qualified to attend a Catholic school, why would it be bad to let the mother decide to get that kid in the Catholic school with basically the same amount of taxpayer money?

In New Jersey, it costs an average of just under $15K to send a kid to a public school.  Most private schools don't even cost that amount.  Catholic schools normally cost half or less that amount with far better results.

[dougskiles]

St Johns County operates in the same state and federal system that Duval does - why are their schools perceived to be better?  Are they really better?

We have several excellent schools in Duval (most are magnet) and I often wonder if there was more commitment from the community to support the neighborhood schools that the situation would be different.  By commitment, I don't mean people comlaining about it and wishing that our school board would do something - I mean a commitment by sending their kids to the neighborhood schools and getting involved at the most basic level.

And that question applies to our city leaders, too.  They will all tell you how important it is for Jacksonville to have a first class public education system - but how many of them send their kids to public schools?  That should tell us everything we need to know about their commitment level.  Do you think the CEO of GM would even consider driving a Toyota?

[thelakelander]

St. Johns & Clay don't have a true inner city.  That's the major difference.  The schools in suburban Jax are just as good as they are in St. Johns and Clay.  I believe the health of schools (exluding magnets, which I'm not a fan of) are directly tied to the health of the neighborhoods surrounding them.  Thus, we're not going to solve anything by isolating school issues from the social and economic environment surrounding them and the families of children that attend them. Cleaning up the schools that give Duval a bad name will also have to involve a serious effort in investing and cleaning up the neighborhoods they were built to serve.  For example, if you don't make a real effort to revitalize and rebuild a neighborhood like Brentwood you can't expect its high school (Jackson) to turn things around.  As for the suburban counties, give them 20-30 years.  When today's popular burbs age you'll see they will begin to have the same issues that older areas of Duval have to deal with presently.

[dougskiles]

The schools in suburban Jax are just as good as they are in St. Johns and Clay.

Here is a comparison of Mandarin HS and Bartram Trail HS test scores from 2009-2010 (and they are only separated by Julington Creek):

        Reading  Math  Writing   Science   % Free & Reduced Lunch   & Minority
MHS    58         82       88        58                      18                        36
BTHS   70         91       95        58                       3                          6

Now, look at the public high school, Robert E. Lee, serving the Avondale/Ortega neighborhoods (arguably one of the wealthiest in Jax):

Lee     31          63      86        37                       55                        76

I wonder if we will ever see any real change in this until we have someone in City Hall who actually sends his/her kids to one of these schools.

Yes - inner city is an issue with our public school system, but so also is the withdrawal of so many families from the public schools to the private schools.

[Charles Hunter]

One huge advantage the private schools have over the public is that they can choose who attends.  As simms3 pointed out, they have minimum admission requirements.  Also, once a child is a student at a private school, they must maintain certain minimum academic and behavioral standards.  Simply put, private schools do not have to put up with the kinds of behavior that are common in public schools.
If the voucher system does not include applying the same tests required of public schools, the whole "let parents choose" slogan is just that - a slogan.  Without a means of comparing the public and private schools, there is no basis for a parent to choose.
And, as dougskiles notes, another problem is the exodus of students from public to private schools.  As this is encouraged to continue, there will be less and less support for public schools - the schools for "those" kids, not good enough to get into private schools.

[dougskiles]

I would be interested to see the results of a survey of private school families indicating:

• Why are you willing to pay so much more money for private school?
• What would have to change about the public school for you to send your children there?

Then I would be interested to know how the school board reacts to those results.  Are they willing to accept that the current model is not working and change?

Also, it occured to me that our city has clearly invested a significant amount of time and money (granted in partnership with the team owners) to get people in the seats at Jaguars home games.  Guess what - it worked!  No blackouts.  What if they put the same energy into getting families to commit to the public school system (partnered with the school board)?  Which of these would have a greater impact on the quality of life in Jacksonville?

[thelakelander]

Private schools aside, the neighborhoods Mandarin pulls from are older than those of Julington Creek.  Some are now stagnant and in decline. How does Orange Park High's scores compare with MHS and JCHS.  Also, how do elementary/middle schools in these areas compare?

[simms3]

Private schools are operated much more similarly to how public schools used to be operated until they were turned into bureaucracies and unionized in the 70s.  A private school is shaped directly by a board of trustees, who are basically like a board of directors.  The board of trustees is determined largely by the parents of the children of the school, and it changes frequently depending on the needs.  Parents have direct involvement.  Their money goes to the school, not to a bureaucracy.

Let's also start with some basics.

1) Teaching.  Private schools do not have to select teachers that went through government training or "teaching school".  Instead they can review a swath of candidates with experience in the field and make their own determinations.

2) Admissions.  Unless your daddy donated a couple mil or more, the school has every right not to accept you.  There aren't quotas to fill.  The school has a reputation to guard, and if they think you will somehow bring down the reputation or not be able to succeed, then you will not be admitted.

3) Discipline.  The private schools can't beat you, but they can discipline you basically how they see fit, and believe me, you can be disciplined for wearing skimpy clothing if you're a girl, or having a cell phone out of your locker (or even using it during school hours), or chewing gum, etc.  You can even be kicked out!  I know people who were kicked out based on what the deans heard happened on the weekend at their house (drugs, egregious acts, etc)  Gasp.

4) Attendance.  I had some friends that went to Stanton and Paxon, two great magnet schools.  My friends who weren't IB there routinely skipped school to go drink at someone's farm in western Jacksonville.  Try that at a private school and you'll most likely be kicked out.

5) Curriculum.  Parents of children of the school have a large say, not a distant government.  Episcopal started offering more and more inner city scholarships to kids, which was great, but then they started a "diversity" curriculum.  Parents were all for more diversity, but did not want to waste resources talking about it (like public schools do for stuff like that).  The diversity coordinator was let go.  At St. Mark's (grammar school), too much time was being spent discussing endangered animals in 3rd grade and the teacher's political views were being injected, so the parents injected themselves and cut an end to it.  Try that in public school.

Also, there are a few different routes to take at a private school, but a school like Episcopal or Bolles is very rigorous (can only be compared generally to the small IB programs at Stanton or Paxon).  The classes are harder and there is no such thing as "no child left behind".  You will be left behind.  There are language requirements.  There are fine arts requirements.  Yes, there are physical education and sports requirements.  There are theology requirements.  And aside from that, you can basically make the experience what you want of it.  Parents get their money's worth.

6) Governance.  Like I said, a private school runs very much like a public company.  There is a Board  of Trustees responsible to the parents.  They have a role in selection of a headmaster, vice headmaster, deans, and faculty.  They also have a say in decisions like tuition increases, construction projects, capital campaigns, etc.

7) Results.  100% of Bolles and Episcopal grads go on to 4 year colleges.  Many many many go on to Ivies and top notch colleges, and many many many earn some degree of scholarships.  Just go to Episcopal's website and you can see that students there win just about every local competition, have the most Merit Finalists, etc etc.  Parents like results when they shell out of pocket and results are what they get.

[simms3]

It seems to me that Charter Schools are becoming very popular around the country, and they are getting back to the roots.  I believe Obama has largely signed on with Charter Schools (why he wouldn't vouchers is weird).  Public schools used to be similar to private schools today.  My mother went to a public high in Chicago, and she remembers teachers cracking rulers over her knuckles.  As soon as the government took it over (look at that system today, ha, with teachers making a fortune for working 6 hour days), things got bad.  Her little brother had to attend Lake Forest Academy.

Also, suburban Atlanta schools in Cobb County are great (supposedly...I have seen a couple of "good" students' writing, bleh).  Cobb County is much more urban and dense and "inner city" than St. Johns or Clay, yet it maintains a swath of model schools.  It is possible.  St. Johns County will probably never see bad schools.  Clay may.  Different demographics.

[Springfielder]

Private schools are nice, as it was said, because they can pick and choose who attends...if they don't maintain what their standards are, then you're out. Public schools don't have that option. Also a biggie, is that private schools are mandated by either the FCAT or NCLB...these are major and I mean major factors that have caused all kind of problems within the public school system, and the way it's headed, it's not going to get any better. It stifles the districts from funding on down...it's a freaking mess, and you can thank the government for that.

Vouchers...most people don't realize that you only get what would otherwise go for funding that student in a public school, and the parents have to pay for the rest. That leaves out many of the middle on down to the lower economic family units...which also leads into another major issue, of parents that aren't involved and/or lack the drive to want not only better for themselves or their children. This leads to the public school system with a student population that 1) cannot afford to attend a private school 2) lacks drive to want an education 3) parents who don't give a damn.

Yet the demands are increasingly more stringent and the lack of support for those in the classroom is unbelievable...the government and people screaming how public schools are failing...well no kidding, when you take the funding away, when you demand more and offer less support to reach those goals...and having to deal with out of control students and parents that expect miracles when they, themelves do not encourage, do not support and do not care.

The fact that most schools/principals won't enforce the student code of conduct, because referrals, etc count against the school when it comes to the states grading practices. So you end up with students raising hell, causing major behavioral issues and yet those teaching are still expected to teach. Until society puts their foot down and stops this from happening, the situation will continue to worsen.

So yes, those private schools are nice, for those that can afford it, and as I said, the public schools get the rest.