TECO Line Streetcar

[thelakelander]

Btw on Saturday, I left the truck in the hotel garage and used my feet and the streetcar to get between DT, the Channel District and Ybor.  On that particular day (there was a NHL game across the street and a Justin Bieber concert), $5 for all day access was a deal.  Not worrying about finding a parking space, paying for one or getting caught up in traffic was pretty sweet.

[Ocklawaha]

Tampa Electric Company or "TECO," had its beginnings in 1899 as a company that managed the electric trolley system serving the 12-year-old city of Tampa. Investors from the Boston area provided most of the capital. The streetcars themselves go back to 1892. Yep, I'd call it TECO too. Jacksonville's system was Jacksonville Electric Company as well until 1912 when the JACKSONVILLE TRACTION COMPANY took over.

OCKLAWAHA

[rainfrog]

On a scale of 1 to 10, my knowledge of Tampa is about a -2, and my knowledge about transit ridership statistics about a 0.5.

So... upcoming stupid question alert!

How on Earth can there be hundreds more residential units supposedly having been built 'oriented' to this line (never mind pre-existing units in the area) than there are daily users of the line? Why would hundreds of people move into these TODs and not even use the very... T... that brought them to be built?

[thelakelander]

Economic conditions aside (I assume like the rest of the state, on and off transit lines) a significant amount of units are empty), you could have a situation similar to the Hilton Garden Inn issue in Jax.  The hotel developer builds at a transit station under and the transit authority reduces service later.  Thus, you could have purchased a unit expecting to have the option of transit to get you to work along the corridor but if service is modified and doesn't start till 11am, you're going to have to find another way to get to your job at 8am.

[DemocraticNole]

DuvalDude, the majority of Tampa is not dirty and Jacksonville certainly is not cleaner. The city just has a lot of older houses and infrastructure than most cities in Florida, which means fit the typical stucco strip mall version of Florida that most folks have (yes, it still has plenty of that too). The unemployment rate is terrible here because this area was perhaps the hardest hit in the state by the real estate crash. Lots of Midwestern and Northeastern folks moves here and bought houses. While many stayed, many were simply flipping houses for a profit. This drove up the average housing costs to a point where most people who live here can't even afford a home in most areas of town.

The main problem here with the streetcar line is that the wealthy residents of Hyde Park have fought against the streetcar coming across the bridge from downtown and in to South Tampa. That is the main reason why the streetcar has failed in terms of ridership. If it came to the Hyde Park and Soho areas, ridership would dramatically increase because of all the residents in this area and walk-ability. The argument that was made against the streetcar is much the same one that many suburban Atlanta residents made about MARTA: if the streetcar line comes here, it will allow all of the criminals and low income people easy access to the neighborhood. What they fail to realize is that those people come here anyway. There are bums and beggars out walking the streets of much of the neighborhood all of the time. We had a few living under the Crosstown Exwy overpass on Platt for over a year.

Tampa certainly is not perfect when it comes to good urban planning, but it is light years ahead of Jacksonville. I am sad to see Pam Iorio leave next year because she truly understood the benefits of smart urban planning.

^^^Oh yeah of course. I acknowledge that. They are atleast getting things accomplished that we arent. I just dont find the city very appealing at all. Just as some people dont like Jax, I dont like tampa. The only nice areas are near USF and Busch Gardens, and there downtown more appealing than ours, but thats it. And as far as jobs, the two close friends of mine were staying down there was before the recession hit. My bestfriend has a degree and job experience, and could not find anything(in 2004) My other friend stayed down there in the late 90's, and after months of searching he found a telemarketing job that paid like 8.00 an hour. I think it may be the job to people ratio. (more people than jobs) Because there have been people that couldnt find work in Orlando either. Being that our metro area is so tiny, is probably why its much easier to find a job here.

I have lived in both Jacksonville (why I still read this site) and Tampa and to me Tampa is a far superior place to live in every way with the exception of road infrastructure, for which the Tampa/St. Pete metro is one of the worst in the country given it's size. Just an FYI, but most people here consider USF and Busch Gardens to be in a ghetto area of town, so I am not sure how much time you have spent here or where you ventured. The job market is tough and there is a lot of what I would call "fake money" here. I understand your points though.

Also, to say the streetcar does not go to downtown Tampa is just false. Pretty much the entire area north and west of the Crosstown Exwy, east of the Hillsborough River and south of I-4/I-275 is considered downtown. Most would also consider the Channel District to be downtown as well. So the line most definitely goes downtown. It just does not go across the river to UT and Hyde Park, which is the big problem. That is the main reason folks here consider the streetcar to go from nowhere to nowhere. It starts in a very nondescript part of downtown and goes to Ybor. While there are many condos in the Channel District, I would say over 50% sit vacant as many were built speculatively before the economy tanked. So basically the line works well for tourists staying at three or four hotels, or those who live in the Channel District and or Ybor who are looking to go to a few bars or a hockey game. That group does not include that many people and is thus why ridership suffers. Most people still have to drive to work, to get to the airport/Raymond James Stadium, or to get to the Soho bars. If the line is ever going to be successful, it needs to continue north through downtown to get to the Performing Arts Center and then should go across the Cass St. Bridge to hit UT and continue over towards Howard/Armenia. 

[Ocklawaha]

OK, go Skyway.  If TECO really isn't useful/used, then the community knows it and the developers aren't going to be fooled.  I'm sure Channelside and Tampa really promote it, but the reason why growth is happening is probably because of the location, incentives, and/or walkability and convenience to *walk* to entertainment and work as well as be near water.

Sorry but the Skyway loses big time, even if it DID carry 60,000 people a day. The only development that openly attributes its location to the Skyway is the Omni-Bank complex. Tampa has documented over a BILLION dollars in "TRANSIT ORIENTED DEVELOPMENT." This isn't just development near transit, but usually it means development that agreed to a special taxation or transit district funding in order to be next to the tracks. If this was unique to Tampa one might say that "Jacksonville isn't dense enough," "not enough infill," "too small," "maybe someday...etc." The fact is this is following RAIL BASED FIXED TRANSIT in 80 cities, over 70 of which had no RAIL just 25 years ago.

It's what MJ has been saying all along, Monorails won't do it, buses won't do it, BRT won't do it, flying boats or pogo sticks won't do it, but RAIL IS KEY to returning our "town," to a "city." Currently according to the Cincinnati Streetcar Study, rail development is returning $14 dollars in new development for every $1 dollar invested. Unlike the SKYWAY, with those kind of numbers ridership becomes a distant second in importance.
SEE: http://www.protransit.com/FAQs/



OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

On a scale of 1 to 10, my knowledge of Tampa is about a -2, and my knowledge about transit ridership statistics about a 0.5.

So... upcoming stupid question alert!

How on Earth can there be hundreds more residential units supposedly having been built 'oriented' to this line (never mind pre-existing units in the area) than there are daily users of the line? Why would hundreds of people move into these TODs and not even use the very... T... that brought them to be built?

Not a stupid question, but an interesting one! Bottom line even if 50,000 condos and apartments had been built along the line (which by the way would probably finance its operation FOREVER) and even if 1 person per unit moved in for 100% occupancy, not everyone is going to Ybor City every day. As has been pointed out unless the streetcar line can string together homes + jobs + shopping + attraction then it fails to make a dent in ridership. Ybor and Channelside are entertainment districts, so they have attractions, and they have homes, end of story unless everyone goes out to play everyday. By not focusing on the populas of the city they have built just another Florida attraction, and it works as a development attraction and once in a while vacation play thing, but fails to provide transit.

In Jacksonville we have the opportunity to string pearls right from the start...
PARK AND KING entertainment/shopping area
Historic 5 Points
Memorial Park
Cummer Museum
Arts Market
Riverwalk South
Major HQ office towers-Fortune 500 companies
200 Riverside hotel
Myrtle Avenue historic area
Florida's only subway
Jacksonville regional transportation center
CSX HQ-Fortune 500
Omni hotel
Times-Union performing arts Center
The Landing
Laura Street
Hyatt Hotel
Riverwalk North
East Bay entertainment district

All of this BEFORE we see the first shovel of dirt, just imagine the possiblities after it's rolling, new convention center, Bay Street Station, aquarium, southern rock and blues hall of fame, Negro League Museum, etc...

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Also, to say the streetcar does not go to downtown Tampa is just false. Pretty much the entire area north and west of the Crosstown Exwy, east of the Hillsborough River and south of I-4/I-275 is considered downtown. Most would also consider the Channel District to be downtown as well. So the line most definitely goes downtown. It just does not go across the river to UT and Hyde Park, which is the big problem.

Its universally accepted that most transit riders won't walk more than 1/4 mile to get to access a transit stop.  I'm sure that distance shrinks if you're casually dressed to work in an office environment in a region where temperatures routinely top 90 degrees with humidity.  


Franklin & Zack Streets during DT Tampa's heyday.

I grew up in the area and am pretty familiar with the area's history.  The true heart of DT Tampa has always been north of Kennedy with Franklin Street serving as the commercial spine.  From the start, the former industrialized Channel District was cut off from DT by the railyard serving the old port terminals of what is now Harbour Island.  The area where the convention center how stands was industrial and maritime related as well (sort of like Jax's Commodore's Point area).


Here is an old aerial.  You can see the core of downtown on the far left and the industrial area which is now the convention center on the right at the mouth of the Hillsborough River.  Not many would be willing to walk that distance to catch a streetcar that runs every 25 minutes to Channelside or Ybor.  Btw, for those not familiar with Tampa, the Channel District can be seen at the top of this image between the Ybor Channel and the rail line.

The streetcar's extension to Whiting Street (which is roughly the current edge of building fabric in DT Tampa) is 0.33 miles from the starter segment's "end-of-the-line" at the convention center.   Kennedy is another 0.17 miles north of Whiting making the walk to the nearest streetcar stop 1/2 mile.  You're not going to attract many riders if they have to walk 1/2 mile to the nearest stop and most of that walk happens to be a mix of expressways, wide one way streets and surface parking lots. To compare that to Jax, it would be like walking from the Landing or Omni to the Prime Osborn to catch a streetcar to Five Points to eat lunch.  So, if they really want to connect to DT Tampa, they need to find a way to get that thing to the heart of DT and directly tie it in to UT, the office towers and newer attractions and hotels a couple of blocks north of Kennedy.

That is the main reason folks here consider the streetcar to go from nowhere to nowhere. It starts in a very nondescript part of downtown and goes to Ybor. While there are many condos in the Channel District, I would say over 50% sit vacant as many were built speculatively before the economy tanked. So basically the line works well for tourists staying at three or four hotels, or those who live in the Channel District and or Ybor who are looking to go to a few bars or a hockey game. That group does not include that many people and is thus why ridership suffers. Most people still have to drive to work, to get to the airport/Raymond James Stadium, or to get to the Soho bars. If the line is ever going to be successful, it needs to continue north through downtown to get to the Performing Arts Center and then should go across the Cass St. Bridge to hit UT and continue over towards Howard/Armenia.

Definitely agree here.  For it to work for local residents, it at least needs to hit the true historic heart of downtown and a few inner city neighborhoods like Tampa Heights, Hyde Park and SOHO.  With that in mind, Tampa should consider at least purchasing the CSX track west of Union Station.  It has little freight traffic and hits the heart of DT, UT, Hyde Park, SOHO and South Tampa, making it an ideal corridor to tie in several inner city destinations.

[Ocklawaha]

It just does not go across the river to UT and Hyde Park, which is the big problem...
...Most people still have to drive to work, to get to the airport/Raymond James Stadium, or to get to the Soho bars. If the line is ever going to be successful, it needs to continue north through downtown to get to the Performing Arts Center and then should go across the Cass St. Bridge to hit UT and continue over towards Howard/Armenia. 

As you can see, it DID cross the river AND the Bay at one time...


Early drawbridge in Tampa


Lafayette/Kennedy Street Bridge


TECO system map


Bayshore Bl, looking southeast from the 1500 block in 1915


Just like our rock hard PCT seats... NOT


Mid WWII

OCKLAWAHA

[simms3]

First of all the area around USF/Busch Gardens up into Temple Terrace is *not* nice.  The only nice intown area of Tampa is Hyde Park, for which it has been established that the residents don't want the streetcar.  Now I might ask, if the residents there do not want the streetcar, if the streetcar went to Hyde Park would the residents actually use it?  The residents of Channelside are younger, more frequently single, loft/condo types who are in the demographic that traditionally uses public transit in cities, and they don't even use the TECO, so I doubt Hyde Park residents (which are more akin to Ortega residents) would use the TECO.

Also, I agree Franklin is definitely the spine of downtown Tampa, which has more office space and definitely *A LOT* more class A office space than downtown Jacksonville.  The TECO is being extended to within a quarter mile of 90% of all DT Tampa office space.  When I say a downtown is larger, I am not talking about land area.  DT Tampa has around 9 million SF of space and around a 19% vacancy.  DT Jacksonville has around 8 million SF of space and 23-25% vacancy.  That's an over 1 million SF occupied difference, which could be anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 employees.

[duvaldude08]

First of all the area around USF/Busch Gardens up into Temple Terrace is *not* nice.  The only nice intown area of Tampa is Hyde Park, for which it has been established that the residents don't want the streetcar.  Now I might ask, if the residents there do not want the streetcar, if the streetcar went to Hyde Park would the residents actually use it?  The residents of Channelside are younger, more frequently single, loft/condo types who are in the demographic that traditionally uses public transit in cities, and they don't even use the TECO, so I doubt Hyde Park residents (which are more akin to Ortega residents) would use the TECO.

Also, I agree Franklin is definitely the spine of downtown Tampa, which has more office space and definitely *A LOT* more class A office space than downtown Jacksonville.  The TECO is being extended to within a quarter mile of 90% of all DT Tampa office space.  When I say a downtown is larger, I am not talking about land area.  DT Tampa has around 9 million SF of space and around a 19% vacancy.  DT Jacksonville has around 8 million SF of space and 23-25% vacancy.  That's an over 1 million SF occupied difference, which could be anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 employees.

Oh ok gotcha. I thought you meant physically. That make sense.

[thelakelander]

Putting actual operations aside, I still think there is a huge difference between being a 1/4 mile on the edge  90% of office space vs a 1/4 mile in the center of everything.  If you're going to make such a significant investment in a fixed system, why not put it where the majority of people within a specific area can use it?

Also, Davis Islands, Harbour Island and just about everything south of Kennedy are pretty nice.  Tampa isn't as bad as some make it seem.  Its basically a larger more comsopolitan version of Jacksonville.

[duvaldude08]

^^^I have to start stuff. LOL Larger in what sense?

[thelakelander]

Population and general numbers.  For the most part, whatever we have they have at least double.  That's not a knock on Jax.  It's just a larger metro.

[duvaldude08]

^^^Oh ok. LOL Thats what I figured you meant. If we had a larger metro area on top of our city population, it would be massive. Unforutnately I dont think most of our out skirts will remain rural and wooded.