Obama is Renewing the American Sense of Identity. Unbelievable to Watch

[ChriswUfGator]

I read the FULL transcript of the event and saw UNEDITED video... they clearly saw RPGs and they were subsequently found by the ground forces that directed them to fire.  The targets were identified... by the ground forces directing the fire.  The only mistake made was the reporters being in a combat zone surrounded by insurgents.  I still do not see any lies to cover anything up.

By "unedited" I'm assuming you mean that the parts were cut out where the helo crew was killing actual insurgents and not just the portion of the video hosted on the website I linked to? I'm sure there is probably a lot more video, but I'm not sure I'd call that "edited" as much as they just decided to post the relevant part of what was probably a real long tape, they didn't change what happened on the tape. I mean, I'm sure WikiLeaks probably has a lot of video of US forces killing people, but unless all those other people happened to be unarmed AP reporters then that's kind of irrelevant as it relates to this debate.

I don't care if that crew had been killing people all day, including 5 minutes before this video clip and 5 minutes after, or every single one of their other kills was a legitimate ID on an insurgent armed with the whole soviet arsenal, it still doesn't excuse what happened in this portion of the video. That's like saying you can't be convicted of drunk driving because you drove sober the day before and the day after you were arrested. Unless you're arguing that what they did was OK because of their frame of mind or something?

[BridgeTroll]

Im arguing that CONTEXT is relevant when trying to determine what happened on a battlefield.  I wonder how many american bomber crews in WWII accidentally killed civilians while dropping bombs from 20k feet?  Our Helo guys IDed the targets in a reasonable fashion and unfortunately civilians were mixed amongst them.  The ground troops were involved in counter insurgency ops and were in pursuit of hit and run insurgents.  The Helos were providing air support.

A copy of the entire transcript is in the link below... Please read all the way to the end...

http://collateralmurder.com/en/transcript.html

[duvaldude08]

How did I know this post was going to go down hill real fast. Im to the point I am scik to stomach about politics. Why cant we just want whats best for the country! Bump Democrats, Replucians, liberal, conservative, all that dumb s#@t!! Let's do whats right for America. I think this country has been brainwashed with titles and drowning in politics for too long.

[NotNow]

This is an old argument on this site.  It is just impossible to explain all of the variables and what a shooting war is like to some who have not experienced it.  No offense meant Chris, but you can't sit in your living room and look at edited video and then judge the operators who were there.  (The unedited video is about 40 minutes long).  I am not trying to justify the killing of non-combatants, but I am pointing out that you do not know what the tactical situation was on the ground at the time.  And yes, in these situations you kill those who are trying to kill you as quickly and from as far away as you can.  I know you don't understand that, but it is true.  And you might make some disparaging comments to make the people you are killing seem less human as well.  For most Americans that helps to cope with combat and killing.  I know you don't understand that as well.  Real armed conflict isn't like television dramas.  Things happen fast and you don't get to rewind.  Those of us who are out there make snap judgements and train constantly.  I've never been in ANY conflict that I didn't lay in bed that night and critique my own actions.  Even when you do everything perfectly, someone dies, someone gets injured, lives are ruined and families are devastated.  

You have a lot to learn if you want to criticize those that step forward, sacrifice and train, and put their lives on the line for a higher purpose.

[ChriswUfGator]

So since you're lecturing me, then perhaps you'd care to enlighten me as to whether you've served in Iraq or Afghanistan? I didn't realize JSO was sent overseas and fighting the Taliban? How many tours did you serve? Maybe you'd care to enlighten us on your qualifications, since you've stated they are so vastly superior to mine, and apparently also to everyone else who's seen that video and objects to its contents?

Also, taking the relevant few minutes out of a nearly hourlong video doesn't change the meaning of the video, and doesn't change what it depicts. You are very selectively using the word "edited" to imply that the events or meaning was somehow changed, when all that really happened is that the website hosting the initial clip saw no need to force people to watch through 40 minutes' worth of unrelated footage to get to the 6 minutes that are relevant. I fail to see how that has any bearing on the debate.

[NotNow]

Earlier in the thread, I already told Chris that I acknowledged that he was right, and that I was wrong on the July 2007 incident.  All of my arguments above are NOT to justify the incident, but merely to try to convey the difficulty of acting in war vs. the comfort of a living room in Florida.  If Chris was an experienced lawyer, he would be familiar with the concepts of acting as a "reasonable person" and acting with good intent with the knowledge gained at the time of the incident.  I am trying to convey that NO life and death fighting is done without some loss of humanity.  You do the best you can.  The insurgents in Iraq are not wearing uniforms.  They hide among (a sometimes willing) population.  There is no justification for killing non-combatants or children.  It is a horrible thing and it is a horrible thing to have to live with.  But some men have to.  Keep in mind that these men are fighting for their lives and the lives of their countrymen.  It is hard for you to understand but it is the truth just the same.  

Chris, there are many JSO Officers fighting right now in Afghanistan and Iraq.  They are Armed Forces Reservist.  I have done the same.  I have served in Iraq, but not Afghanistan.  I have been in life and death fights.  I have been in many confrontations and have suffered several injuries.  I have lost some friends along the way.  Qualifications?  I don't claim any.  But I have been in these guys shoes.  Scared to death and promising God anything if he just lets me live through it.  The feeling in the pit of my stomach when I see a friend killed, and the awkwardness of trying to say something, anything to a widow to make it any better.  I've also felt the anger and burning hatred for those that want to kill me.  I have called them names and laughed at their bodies as well.  I hope you never have to do anything like it.  But the greatest people I have ever met were doing and are doing just these things and much, much more.  It has been my honor  to serve with the military and JSO, and I would do it all again.

[ChriswUfGator]

Earlier in the thread, I already told Chris that I acknowledged that he was right, and that I was wrong on the July 2007 incident.  All of my arguments above are NOT to justify the incident, but merely to try to convey the difficulty of acting in war vs. the comfort of a living room in Florida.  If Chris was an experienced lawyer, he would be familiar with the concepts of acting as a "reasonable person" and acting with good intent with the knowledge gained at the time of the incident.  I am trying to convey that NO life and death fighting is done without some loss of humanity.  You do the best you can.  The insurgents in Iraq are not wearing uniforms.  They hide among (a sometimes willing) population.  There is no justification for killing non-combatants or children.  It is a horrible thing and it is a horrible thing to have to live with.  But some men have to.  Keep in mind that these men are fighting for their lives and the lives of their countrymen.  It is hard for you to understand but it is the truth just the same.  

Chris, there are many JSO Officers fighting right now in Afghanistan and Iraq.  They are Armed Forces Reservist.  I have done the same.  I have served in Iraq, but not Afghanistan.  I have been in life and death fights.  I have been in many confrontations and have suffered several injuries.  I have lost some friends along the way.  Qualifications?  I don't claim any.  But I have been in these guys shoes.  Scared to death and promising God anything if he just lets me live through it.  The feeling in the pit of my stomach when I see a friend killed, and the awkwardness of trying to say something, anything to a widow to make it any better.  I've also felt the anger and burning hatred for those that want to kill me.  I have called them names and laughed at their bodies as well.  I hope you never have to do anything like it.  But the greatest people I have ever met were doing and are doing just these things and much, much more.  It has been my honor  to serve with the military and JSO, and I would do it all again.

So it seems that you sure spent a lot of time not answering the question, which for the record, was your own combat experience under the circumstances that this air crew faced at the time they opened fire on civilians. After all, you were lecturing me for not having the requisite capability to watch a video tape and understand what I'm seeing because, according to you, watching a video of someone killing people and then lying about it would somehow require me to be in their shoes in order to understand that what I'm seeing. So naturally, it was only fair that you address your own time spent in their shoes, which from your two paragraphs of equivocation without answering the question I would understand is probably none. And I would certainly hope that is the case, because I'd like to think you would rely on your training rather than blasting away at anything that moves.

So now that that is all dispensed with, I would say that I certainly appreciate the military service of any JSO officers who are serving for our country, and I appreciate the service the rest of JSO provides here at home, and that is meant to include you. However, I'm still not sure what qualification that would give you, or for that matter what qualification I or anyone else would be lacking, to be able to watch a video of someone killing people and then lying about it and then understand that what I just saw was someone killing people and lying about it?

The footage really seems rather clear cut. BridgeTroll already trotted out the "they mistook a camera for a RPG" and "the reporters were in the middle of a combat exercise" and "there were insurgents around" excuses, and that's all fine and dandy, but certainly doesn't make it right. If person A shoots at you on the street, that certainly doesn't entitle you to come and shoot person B, and then lie about it and say person B shot at you when that is clearly not the case. They weren't speaking about RPG's and whatnot in some general sense, the transcript clearly reflects this air crew claiming that this particular group of people had in fact fired on them, and the video just clearly shows that to be a lie, as not only do they plainly not have the weapons the air crew alleged they had, but they were minding their own business up until the point they were wrongfully fired upon. This is really a hard one to defend, the footage just speaks for itself.

[NotNow]

I am all for anyone who wants to argue against the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq or anywhere else for that matter.  I have my own arguments as well.  Each of us has an equal say.  Chris has every right to say what he wants (and to continue to say it, no matter what I say).  I'm just conveying my ideas.  I don't think that you or he are "stupid" or "crazy" for your opinions.  We all have different background, education and experiences.  I do try to stand up for those who have their character attacked for insufficient or unworthy reasons.  My comments over the last few pages were meant to educate, not to offend or defame.  

And StephenDare!, no one is being sent to "die".  They are being sent to enforce the will of the United States.  And I expect every one home, and all of us to do what we can to ensure that they have the tools they need to enforce that will and to come home to a welcoming society.  If you don't like what the USG is doing, vote them out.

[NotNow]

Earlier in the thread, I already told Chris that I acknowledged that he was right, and that I was wrong on the July 2007 incident.  All of my arguments above are NOT to justify the incident, but merely to try to convey the difficulty of acting in war vs. the comfort of a living room in Florida.  If Chris was an experienced lawyer, he would be familiar with the concepts of acting as a "reasonable person" and acting with good intent with the knowledge gained at the time of the incident.  I am trying to convey that NO life and death fighting is done without some loss of humanity.  You do the best you can.  The insurgents in Iraq are not wearing uniforms.  They hide among (a sometimes willing) population.  There is no justification for killing non-combatants or children.  It is a horrible thing and it is a horrible thing to have to live with.  But some men have to.  Keep in mind that these men are fighting for their lives and the lives of their countrymen.  It is hard for you to understand but it is the truth just the same. 

Chris, there are many JSO Officers fighting right now in Afghanistan and Iraq.  They are Armed Forces Reservist.  I have done the same.  I have served in Iraq, but not Afghanistan.  I have been in life and death fights.  I have been in many confrontations and have suffered several injuries.  I have lost some friends along the way.  Qualifications?  I don't claim any.  But I have been in these guys shoes.  Scared to death and promising God anything if he just lets me live through it.  The feeling in the pit of my stomach when I see a friend killed, and the awkwardness of trying to say something, anything to a widow to make it any better.  I've also felt the anger and burning hatred for those that want to kill me.  I have called them names and laughed at their bodies as well.  I hope you never have to do anything like it.  But the greatest people I have ever met were doing and are doing just these things and much, much more.  It has been my honor  to serve with the military and JSO, and I would do it all again.

So it seems that you sure spent a lot of time not answering the question, which for the record, was your own combat experience under the circumstances that this air crew faced at the time they opened fire on civilians. After all, you were lecturing me for not having the requisite capability to watch a video tape and understand what I'm seeing because, according to you, watching a video of someone killing people and then lying about it would somehow require me to be in their shoes in order to understand that what I'm seeing. So naturally, it was only fair that you address your own time spent in their shoes, which from your two paragraphs of equivocation without answering the question I would understand is probably none. And I would certainly hope that is the case, because I'd like to think you would rely on your training rather than blasting away at anything that moves.

So now that that is all dispensed with, I would say that I certainly appreciate the military service of any JSO officers who are serving for our country, and I appreciate the service the rest of JSO provides here at home, and that is meant to include you. However, I'm still not sure what qualification that would give you, or for that matter what qualification I or anyone else would be lacking, to be able to watch a video of someone killing people and then lying about it and then understand that what I just saw was someone killing people and lying about it?

The footage really seems rather clear cut. BridgeTroll already trotted out the "they mistook a camera for a RPG" and "the reporters were in the middle of a combat exercise" and "there were insurgents around" excuses, and that's all fine and dandy, but certainly doesn't make it right. If person A shoots at you on the street, that certainly doesn't entitle you to come and shoot person B, and then lie about it and say person B shot at you when that is clearly not the case. They weren't speaking about RPG's and whatnot in some general sense, the transcript clearly reflects this air crew claiming that this particular group of people had in fact fired on them, and the video just clearly shows that to be a lie, as not only do they plainly not have the weapons the air crew alleged they had, but they were minding their own business up until the point they were wrongfully fired upon. This is really a hard one to defend, the footage just speaks for itself.

It is clear to me that you are set in your view of this incident.  Your take on it is clear.  Your lack of experience is glaring to some of us here, but there is no use in continuing. 

[ChriswUfGator]

Earlier in the thread, I already told Chris that I acknowledged that he was right, and that I was wrong on the July 2007 incident.  All of my arguments above are NOT to justify the incident, but merely to try to convey the difficulty of acting in war vs. the comfort of a living room in Florida.  If Chris was an experienced lawyer, he would be familiar with the concepts of acting as a "reasonable person" and acting with good intent with the knowledge gained at the time of the incident.  I am trying to convey that NO life and death fighting is done without some loss of humanity.  You do the best you can.  The insurgents in Iraq are not wearing uniforms.  They hide among (a sometimes willing) population.  There is no justification for killing non-combatants or children.  It is a horrible thing and it is a horrible thing to have to live with.  But some men have to.  Keep in mind that these men are fighting for their lives and the lives of their countrymen.  It is hard for you to understand but it is the truth just the same. 

Chris, there are many JSO Officers fighting right now in Afghanistan and Iraq.  They are Armed Forces Reservist.  I have done the same.  I have served in Iraq, but not Afghanistan.  I have been in life and death fights.  I have been in many confrontations and have suffered several injuries.  I have lost some friends along the way.  Qualifications?  I don't claim any.  But I have been in these guys shoes.  Scared to death and promising God anything if he just lets me live through it.  The feeling in the pit of my stomach when I see a friend killed, and the awkwardness of trying to say something, anything to a widow to make it any better.  I've also felt the anger and burning hatred for those that want to kill me.  I have called them names and laughed at their bodies as well.  I hope you never have to do anything like it.  But the greatest people I have ever met were doing and are doing just these things and much, much more.  It has been my honor  to serve with the military and JSO, and I would do it all again.

So it seems that you sure spent a lot of time not answering the question, which for the record, was your own combat experience under the circumstances that this air crew faced at the time they opened fire on civilians. After all, you were lecturing me for not having the requisite capability to watch a video tape and understand what I'm seeing because, according to you, watching a video of someone killing people and then lying about it would somehow require me to be in their shoes in order to understand that what I'm seeing. So naturally, it was only fair that you address your own time spent in their shoes, which from your two paragraphs of equivocation without answering the question I would understand is probably none. And I would certainly hope that is the case, because I'd like to think you would rely on your training rather than blasting away at anything that moves.

So now that that is all dispensed with, I would say that I certainly appreciate the military service of any JSO officers who are serving for our country, and I appreciate the service the rest of JSO provides here at home, and that is meant to include you. However, I'm still not sure what qualification that would give you, or for that matter what qualification I or anyone else would be lacking, to be able to watch a video of someone killing people and then lying about it and then understand that what I just saw was someone killing people and lying about it?

The footage really seems rather clear cut. BridgeTroll already trotted out the "they mistook a camera for a RPG" and "the reporters were in the middle of a combat exercise" and "there were insurgents around" excuses, and that's all fine and dandy, but certainly doesn't make it right. If person A shoots at you on the street, that certainly doesn't entitle you to come and shoot person B, and then lie about it and say person B shot at you when that is clearly not the case. They weren't speaking about RPG's and whatnot in some general sense, the transcript clearly reflects this air crew claiming that this particular group of people had in fact fired on them, and the video just clearly shows that to be a lie, as not only do they plainly not have the weapons the air crew alleged they had, but they were minding their own business up until the point they were wrongfully fired upon. This is really a hard one to defend, the footage just speaks for itself.

It is clear to me that you are set in your view of this incident.  Your take on it is clear.  Your lack of experience is glaring to some of us here, but there is no use in continuing. 

Well the military agrees with Chris.

Don't let the facts get in the way Stephen...

Apparently even the military lacks NotNow's extensive qualifications as an intelligence analyst and thus can't be trusted to interpret its own video either. NotNow's years-long pattern of declaring that anyone with an opposing political view is unqualified to form an opinion on the subject is just too well established and too entertaining to interfere with at this late date. Lol...

[NotNow]

Earlier in the thread, I already told Chris that I acknowledged that he was right, and that I was wrong on the July 2007 incident.  All of my arguments above are NOT to justify the incident, but merely to try to convey the difficulty of acting in war vs. the comfort of a living room in Florida.  If Chris was an experienced lawyer, he would be familiar with the concepts of acting as a "reasonable person" and acting with good intent with the knowledge gained at the time of the incident.  I am trying to convey that NO life and death fighting is done without some loss of humanity.  You do the best you can.  The insurgents in Iraq are not wearing uniforms.  They hide among (a sometimes willing) population.  There is no justification for killing non-combatants or children.  It is a horrible thing and it is a horrible thing to have to live with.  But some men have to.  Keep in mind that these men are fighting for their lives and the lives of their countrymen.  It is hard for you to understand but it is the truth just the same. 

Chris, there are many JSO Officers fighting right now in Afghanistan and Iraq.  They are Armed Forces Reservist.  I have done the same.  I have served in Iraq, but not Afghanistan.  I have been in life and death fights.  I have been in many confrontations and have suffered several injuries.  I have lost some friends along the way.  Qualifications?  I don't claim any.  But I have been in these guys shoes.  Scared to death and promising God anything if he just lets me live through it.  The feeling in the pit of my stomach when I see a friend killed, and the awkwardness of trying to say something, anything to a widow to make it any better.  I've also felt the anger and burning hatred for those that want to kill me.  I have called them names and laughed at their bodies as well.  I hope you never have to do anything like it.  But the greatest people I have ever met were doing and are doing just these things and much, much more.  It has been my honor  to serve with the military and JSO, and I would do it all again.

So it seems that you sure spent a lot of time not answering the question, which for the record, was your own combat experience under the circumstances that this air crew faced at the time they opened fire on civilians. After all, you were lecturing me for not having the requisite capability to watch a video tape and understand what I'm seeing because, according to you, watching a video of someone killing people and then lying about it would somehow require me to be in their shoes in order to understand that what I'm seeing. So naturally, it was only fair that you address your own time spent in their shoes, which from your two paragraphs of equivocation without answering the question I would understand is probably none. And I would certainly hope that is the case, because I'd like to think you would rely on your training rather than blasting away at anything that moves.

So now that that is all dispensed with, I would say that I certainly appreciate the military service of any JSO officers who are serving for our country, and I appreciate the service the rest of JSO provides here at home, and that is meant to include you. However, I'm still not sure what qualification that would give you, or for that matter what qualification I or anyone else would be lacking, to be able to watch a video of someone killing people and then lying about it and then understand that what I just saw was someone killing people and lying about it?

The footage really seems rather clear cut. BridgeTroll already trotted out the "they mistook a camera for a RPG" and "the reporters were in the middle of a combat exercise" and "there were insurgents around" excuses, and that's all fine and dandy, but certainly doesn't make it right. If person A shoots at you on the street, that certainly doesn't entitle you to come and shoot person B, and then lie about it and say person B shot at you when that is clearly not the case. They weren't speaking about RPG's and whatnot in some general sense, the transcript clearly reflects this air crew claiming that this particular group of people had in fact fired on them, and the video just clearly shows that to be a lie, as not only do they plainly not have the weapons the air crew alleged they had, but they were minding their own business up until the point they were wrongfully fired upon. This is really a hard one to defend, the footage just speaks for itself.

It is clear to me that you are set in your view of this incident.  Your take on it is clear.  Your lack of experience is glaring to some of us here, but there is no use in continuing. 

Well the military agrees with Chris.

Don't let the facts get in the way Stephen...

Apparently even the military lacks NotNow's extensive qualifications as an intelligence analyst and thus can't be trusted to interpret its own video either. NotNow's years-long pattern of declaring that anyone with an opposing political view is unqualified to form an opinion on the subject is just too well established and too entertaining to interfere with at this late date. Lol...

Chris, you apparently don't read very well.  Or you just like to hear yourself talk.  I'm not sure what StephenDare!'s statement of "The military agrees with Chris" means, but I have clearly stated over and over that nothing justifies the killing of non-combatants and children.  I have also stated that I am not aware of the stance of any military investigation into the matter.  Over the last few posts I have simply tried to explain that thinking in real time under fire is quite different than sitting in front of your computer in your living room.  Your need to resort to personal insults in every argument says much more about you than the whimsical accusations against me. 

If you are always right, then you are just here to tell the rest of us about it, huh?

[BridgeTroll]

BridgeTroll already trotted out the "they mistook a camera for a RPG"

No... I didnt.  There were RPGs and AKs found.  In fact... an RPG was found under one of the bodies.  Read the transcript.

01:33 Hotel Two-Six this is Crazy Horse One-Eight [communication between chopper 1 and chopper 2]. Have individuals with weapons.
01:41 Yup. He's got a weapon too.
01:43 Hotel Two-Six; Crazy Horse One-Eight. Have five to six individuals with AK47s [automatic rifles]. Request permission to engage [shoot].
01:51 Roger that. Uh, we have no personnel east of our position. So, uh, you are free to engage. Over.

02:09 Um, hey Bushmaster element...
02:10 He's got an RPG [Rocket Propelled Grenade]?
02:11 All right, we got a guy with an RPG.
02:13 I'm gonna fire.

02:19 Hotel Two-Six; have eyes on individual with RPG. Getting ready to fire. We won't...
02:23 Yeah, we had a guy shoot---and now he's behind the building.
02:26 God damn it.

04:01 Crazyhorse One-Eight; this is Hotel Two-Six. Over.
04:03 Roger. Currently engaging [fighting/shooting at] approximately eight individuals, uh KIA [Killed In Action], uh RPGs, and AK-47s.
04:12 Hotel Two-Six, you need to move to that location once Crazyhorse is done and get pictures. Over.

15:07 They uh had AK-47s and were to our east, so, where we were taking small arms fire. Over.
15:20 Hotel Crazyhorse One-Eight.
15:26 Crazyhorse One-Eight; this is Hotel Two-Six.
15:28 Yeah Two-Six. One-Eight I just also wanted to make sure you knew that we had a guy with an RPG cropping round the corner getting ready to fire on your location.

18:44 Bushmaster Six; Hotel Two-Six over.
18:56 Six; this is Four. I got one individual looks like he's got an RPG round laying underneath him. Break.

[BridgeTroll]

From Stephens Ethan McCord interview...  AKs, RPGs, units taking fire... sounds like a war zone firefight to me.  Even Ethan does not accuse anyone of lying or covering anything up.  Why do you Chris?

We were getting ready to wrap up at about one o’clock in the afternoon. We started to funnel into an alleyway and started to take small arms fire from rooftops from AK-47s. We didn’t know what was happening with the Apache helicopters. They were attached to us from another unit to watch over us for this mission, which was called “Ranger Dominance.”

We could hear them open fire, but those of us who were on the ground, outside of the vehicles, had no idea what was taking place. We couldn’t hear the radio chatter and we were pretty caught up in our own situation.

When that situation was neutralized, we were told to walk up onto the scene. I was one of about six soldiers who were dismounted to first arrive on the scene.

What did you see when you got there?

It was pretty much absolute carnage. I had never seen anybody shot by a 30-millimeter round before, and frankly don’t ever want to see that again. It almost seemed unreal, like something out of a bad B-horror movie. When these rounds hit you they kind of explodeâ€"people with their heads half-off, their insides hanging out of their bodies, limbs missing. I did see two RPGs on the scene as well as a few AK-47s.

[ChriswUfGator]

None of what they posted amounts to anything more than what I already sarcastically summarized...

From Stephens Ethan McCord interview...  AKs, RPGs, units taking fire... sounds like a war zone firefight to me.  Even Ethan does not accuse anyone of lying or covering anything up.  Why do you Chris?

We were getting ready to wrap up at about one o’clock in the afternoon. We started to funnel into an alleyway and started to take small arms fire from rooftops from AK-47s. We didn’t know what was happening with the Apache helicopters. They were attached to us from another unit to watch over us for this mission, which was called “Ranger Dominance.”

We could hear them open fire, but those of us who were on the ground, outside of the vehicles, had no idea what was taking place. We couldn’t hear the radio chatter and we were pretty caught up in our own situation.

When that situation was neutralized, we were told to walk up onto the scene. I was one of about six soldiers who were dismounted to first arrive on the scene.

What did you see when you got there?

It was pretty much absolute carnage. I had never seen anybody shot by a 30-millimeter round before, and frankly don’t ever want to see that again. It almost seemed unreal, like something out of a bad B-horror movie. When these rounds hit you they kind of explodeâ€"people with their heads half-off, their insides hanging out of their bodies, limbs missing. I did see two RPGs on the scene as well as a few AK-47s.

Yeah he doesn't say they were on the bodies of the people the helo gunned down, nor in that exact location. The video clearly shows that these civilians were minding their own business and the helo wrongfully opened fire on them. I couldn't care less that someone else had an RPG, or they found one near that location. That's irrelevant. The video clearly demonstrates that nobody in that group had RPG's, and that nobody in that group fired on that chopper.

[BridgeTroll]

Unreal...