What happened to Atlas Hovercrafts?

[mtraininjax]

Connecting Timuquana and University Blvd with a cross river shuttle?

I would gladly take a ferry from each to the other side, than drive 295/10/95! Good idea Ock!

[RMHoward]

Respectfully,
I think you would be one of the few willing to sit in his car for god knows how long waiting for ferry to return to your side of the river, then file like cattle onto ferry (think 100degrees in August with 99 percent humidity and you have to idle all this time for Air conditioning), slowly travel across river, then wait patiently to file like cattle (again) off ferry.  In the mean time, you could have traveled the route much quicker on the Buckman (if no accidents).  People in this country want to move and move now.  They wont be content doing all this sitting and sweating.  This stuff is fantasy in this country, just like commuter rail.  I read all this stuff here about how good an idea these modes of travel are.  The fact is, if there was a market for it, it would have been built.  If Amtrak, was left to its own devices, it would have failed a long time ago.  Instead, we the taxpayers spend quadrillions of money propping it up.  A ferry anywhere is just a novelty, ie a fun place to go for a Sunday drive (ala Mayport again).  The exceptions to this in this country are places where people are trying to get to islands, then it makes sense.  Otherwise, sorry, its a fantasy until things dramatically change in this country.
Rick

[Ocklawaha]

Respectfully,
I think you would be one of the few willing to sit in his car for god knows how long waiting for ferry to return to your side of the river, then file like cattle onto ferry (think 100degrees in August with 99 percent humidity and you have to idle all this time for Air conditioning), slowly travel across river, then wait patiently to file like cattle (again) off ferry.  In the mean time, you could have traveled the route much quicker on the Buckman (if no accidents).  People in this country want to move and move now.  They wont be content doing all this sitting and sweating.  This stuff is fantasy in this country, just like commuter rail.  I read all this stuff here about how good an idea these modes of travel are.  The fact is, if there was a market for it, it would have been built.  If Amtrak, was left to its own devices, it would have failed a long time ago.  Instead, we the taxpayers spend quadrillions of money propping it up.  A ferry anywhere is just a novelty, ie a fun place to go for a Sunday drive (ala Mayport again).  The exceptions to this in this country are places where people are trying to get to islands, then it makes sense.  Otherwise, sorry, its a fantasy until things dramatically change in this country.
Rick

Amtrak? Your information about Amtrak is pretty skewed, sounds like you got it out of a John McCain brochure. Certainly Amtrak has had problems, not the least of which was the way it was set up by the Republican President at the onset. You get some grasp on this when I tell you that a certain Penn Central Executive went yelling and dancing through the railroad HQ, shouting at the top of his lungs, "We've done it! We've killed the passenger train!" Kind of makes one wonder just who the hell "we" is/was? Add to this 35 years of tea-party like attacks on anything rail, while boosting highway and airline spending through the stratosphere and the wonder becomes, how in the hell do we still have ANY AMTRAK?

Commuter rail is a success in almost every city where it is operated well. What started as a mitigation experiment in both Miami and Los Angeles, is today accounting for huge numbers of passengers who are NOT on Interstate 95 or 5/10/405 etc. Your contention that no one will ride falls apart when one considers that Los Angeles is the most "FREEwaycentric" society on earth, and since the start of Metro-Rail, it is also the fastest growing commuter, light, heavy rail, BRT, mass transit city in the world. Jacksonville will be no different, as the good folks in Orange Park/NAS discover a solution to the longest commute in Florida.

Ferry? I tend to agree in principal that a long wait is a deal killer, however a short run Al la river taxi downtown, is a desirable addition if for no other reason then development and tourism.

The real bank breaker? Highways and Airports have cost us untold trillions of dollars, and wrecked us as a fuel importing - dependent nation with bad air.

OCKLAWAHA

[Noone]

I had the opportunity to meet Ken Venables when he made a presentation to the Jacksonville Waterways Commission seeking a resolution of support for the city of Palatka and their attempt to provide water transport.

His efforts were advanced by councilwoman Self with a resolution 2007-0729 recognizing and supporting the regional transit service project and the city of Palatka's request for funding to establish and initiate water taxi service on the St. Johns River.

After his presentation I went outside with him and wished him well. But shared my immediate concerns that this may work in your part of the river but it won't happen in Jacksonville. I shared with him our recent legislative actions. 2005-207 the OFWB Old Fuller Warren Bridge. What a potential hovercraft, water taxi stop.

So where are we today. 2010-604 Shipyards/Landmar the Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier.

Pocket Parks-Pocket Piers. If we can have a pocket park in Jacksonville we can also have a pocket pier.

Two years ago I went to the commisioners of FIND (Florida Inland Navigation District) and asked if private money was raised for a pocket pier floating dock in Duval county would the commissioners of FIND match the other 1/2 and the answer is YES. You need a sponsor. A Mayor, A city councilmember. What a joke. Be concerned. We will be seeing less access.

That is why for me there is no way in heck I'd vote for anyone that won't support the immediate use of the pier. and the district benefit for the constituents of a council district who would impliment a pocket pier at a waterfront public access street end.

Riverside, Avondale?
San Marco?
Holmesdale Ave. Dist.4
Dist. 7 Hogans Creek
There are more

We can landlock Annie Lytle ( Still can't believe that)
2010-856- Pending legislation to ban Transient vendors throughout Duval county while we are in the middle of a JCCI study called Recession, Recovery, and Beyond

But HEY! We've got a light at the end of the tunnel because we have a J bill resolution for an "Urban Transition Area" in Riverside to create a special Drinking Zone. This just passed with council approval.

This is an election cycle. We need singles. We need to Make it Happen.

Keep score.

[Ocklawaha]

In my "transportation guy" opinion if Palatka really want's a marine service, they should be looking to small ship cruises. Return of the regularly scheduled boats on the St. Johns and Ocklawaha, between Jax and Eustis/Sanford would more then boost Palatka's port to a front focus. A interline agreement where Trailways or Red Bus met the boats at dockside for the journey to Disney, Epcot, Universal, MGM, or sites like the Ocala National Forest and St. Augustine, would top off a marketing effort. This COULD BE DONE.

Even the two ships in Green Cove Springs, the former Cape Cod Light, and the Cape May Light, could make the journey to Palatka if the state takes down the Shand's Bridge...

GENERAL INFORMATION
NAME:    Sea Voyager
EX NAME:    Clipper Voyager, Cape May Light, Coastal Queen I
TYPE:    Passenger Vessel
OWNER:    Voyager Owner LLC
OPERATOR:    International Shipping Partners
CALL SIGN:    WDF3278
PORT OF REGISTRY:    Wilmington, DE
IMO NUMBER:    9213129
OFFICIAL NUMBER:    1103209
BUILDERS:    Atlantic Marine, Jacksonville, Florida
LAUNCHED:    2001
REFURBISHED:    N/A
CLASSIFICATION BY:    Lloyd’s Register 100 A1 Passenger ship LMC
BUILD TO SOLAS:    Lifesaving according to 46CFR and SOLAS 2000
MAIN DIMENSIONS
LENGTH OVERALL (LOA):    286.3 ft
BREADTH (MOLDED):    50 ft
DRAUGHT Upper-Deck:    20.0 ft
DRAUGHT (MAXIMUM):    13.5 ft
GROSS TONNAGE:    4954 ITC
NET TONNAGE:    1486 ITC
AIR DRAFT:    96.5 ft
SPEED AND CONSUMPTION
IN PORT:    4 ton/day
MANEUVERING SPEED:    6 kn = 6 ton/day + 7 ton/day
ECONOMICAL SPEED:    10 kn = 5 ton/day + 12 ton/day
FULL SPEED:    14 kn = 5 ton/day + 17 ton/day
TANK CAPACITY
HFO:    N/A
MGO:    248.70 m3
LUBOIL:    12.39 m3
FRESHWATER:    255.44 m3
CONDENSATE:    36.91 m3
BALLAST WATER:    218.40 m3
FIXED BALLAST:    160.00 ton
SEWAGE:    101.42 m3
DIRTY OIL:    10.74 m3
TECHNICAL INFORMATION
MAIN ENGINES:    2 x Caterpillar 3516 B Serial #: 9AN00178, 9AN00179 2 x 2000 HP, 1491 KW, 1800 RPM
AUXILIARY ENGINES:    2 x Caterpillar 3516 B
GENERATORS:    Serial #: 8KN00378, 8KN00379 2 x 2549 HP, 1901 KW, 1800 RPM 2 x 2261 KVA, 1825 KW, 2993 A 440 V, 60 Hz, 3 phase
EMERGENCY GENERATOR:    1 x Caterpillar 3406 Serial #: ISS00292 1 x 463 HP, 1800 RPM 1 x 394 KVA, 315 KW, 517 A, 440 V, 60 Hz, 3 phase
PROPELLERS:    2 x Schottel four blade 2 x 1212 R.L. Building No. 14434
RUDDER:    2 x Schottel 360 deg Azimuth
BOW-THRUSTER:    1 x Schottel 480 VAC, 3 ph, 738.6 KW
STABILIZERS:    N/A
BILGE WATER SEPARATOR:    1 x Heli-Sep 500 OCD 1 x OCD 2M 15 ppm Bilge Alarm
F.W. GENERATOR:    2 x VMT, Village Marine Tech BW-8000, Serial #: 9129 2 x 30 tons, 440 V, 60 Hz
SEWAGE TREATMENT:    1 x ORCA II, RCP 98040-MEA 500 RWT 98009-MW, 15,000 gal/day, 56 ton USCG #: 159.015/6309 6310/0
AIR-CONDITION PLANT:    2 x Carrier 90SMC0186-A132A1 SN: D99451, D99452 2 x 178.7 ton / 638.3 KW
ELEVATOR PAX:    1
ELEVATOR FOOD:    1
DRY PROVISION STORES:    2
REFRIGERATED STORES:    1
DEEP FREEZERS:    2
GARBAGE HANDLING:    1 x refrigerated storage room with plastic bins 1 x Can crusher
VOLTAGE ON BOARD:    440 V, 60 Hz 120 V, 60 Hz
PUBLIC ROOMS AND FACILITIES
Fog Cutters Pub:    42 chairs, 12 Bar chairs, 11 tables, 1 Piano, 150m2
Harbor Lights Lounge:    132 chairs, 8 Sofas, 40 tables, 1 Piano, 300 m2
The Rosecliff Restaurant:    30 tables, 132 chairs, 300 m2
Lighthouse Keepers Bar:    15 tables, 60 chairs, 120 m2
Gift Shop:    30 m2
Pursers Office:    30 m2
Launderette Passenger:    2 x Washer 2 x Dryer
Launderette Crew:    2 x Washer 2 x Dryer
Main Laundry:    2 x Washer 2 x Dryer 1 x Roller Press
Crew Mess:    18 chairs, 4 tables, 50 m2
PASSENGER CABINS
CABINS: 110    BEDS: 218
OUTSIDE 2 BED:    202
INSIDE 2 BED:    14
INSIDE 1 BED:    2
CREW CABINS
1 BED WITH FACILITIES:    7
2 BED WITH FACILITIES:    36

OCKLAWAHA

[RMHoward]

OcK,
John McCain brochure??  No, actually i talk regularly with my brother in law who is currently an avid rail nut as well as being an Amtrak Acela engineer between Wilmington DE an NY central station (20 years). Maybe i read one of his brochures.    All I said was that Amtrak is a money looser and always has been, thus propped up by the taxpayers (just like the post office by the way).  True or not??  Not sure how many CSPAN hearings i have seen in the last decade or so talking about another billion, or two or three to throw at Amtrak, in order for it to survive.  Leave it to this web site forum to immediately start slinging S#$%t toward the right (read tea party).  Yea, Ock, its all the Republicans fault, if it makes you happy.

PS assuming the state would tear down the Shands bridge, exactly what would all those folks on ships come to see in Palatka? 

[Ocklawaha]

Amtrak was formed under the direction of RICHARD NIXON, and strangled for cash by FORD (R), CARTER (D), REAGAN (R), BUSH (R), AND GW BUSH (R). Clinton did NOTHING for Amtrak either, even when he had control of both houses. OBAMA (D) Is the first US President to support passenger rail and yet in spite of the antagonistic history the company is still with us.

No need to sling shit here at the Tea Party with regards to Amtrak, they have done that all by themselves with the NO RAIL group out of Tampa, and the recent campaign peppered with anti-Amtrak posters. The NO TAX FOR TRACKS group is leading the charge, I can't help where their support comes from.

The Post Office recieves no tax support though this is a common belief.
see: http://www.usps.com/communications/newsroom/postalfacts.htm

I will shut up and cry when you can point out for me how much "profit" we made off of I-10, JTB, Roosevelt or I-95 last year. Oh and the new I-795 is going to be a real windfall...  Also, how much did we make off of the FAA, CAB, ATC, etc? Did you know if THEY were profitable we would have to add more then $150 dollars to every airline ticket on every flight? So I'm all for cutting Amtrak's budget just as soon as we stop funding the other modes at many times Amtrak's paltry rate.



OCKLAWAHA

[RMHoward]

quote
"I will shut up and cry when you can point out for me how much "profit" we made off of I-10, JTB, Roosevelt or I-95 last year"

I didnt argue for profit. I said they loose billions of dollars.  I dont want Amtrak to make a profit, just be self sustaining, at the very least.  Those roads you mention are used to full capacity, at least.  So, i think maybe we get a return on investment that way for our tax dollars. Another obvious difference is that i dont have to go to a ticket window infinitum every time i want to use I-10, JTB, Roosevelt, or I-95. 
Rick

[Ocklawaha]

Over 2,000 persons a day roll into Florida on 3 Amtrak trains. That is potentially 2,000 less automobiles on our roads for the investment of just 3 trains - imagine what the multiplier effect of that could be if we really supported them.

Guess you don't fly either?

What is “necessary” or “indispensable” about flying largely empty aircraft around various parts of the country? The official definition of what is “essential air service” is determined in a completely arbitrary and silly fashion. If a point on the map had scheduled air service at some time during the 1968-78 base period, it is entitled to a subsidy for the provision of scheduled air service until 1988.

Since most of these points receiving scheduled service between 1968 and 1978 were also receiving subsidies for this service, the decisive criterion for future subsidy is a historical demonstration of previously unviable or inefficient air service operations. In other words, past waste serves as the justification for future waste.

There should be no misunderstanding of what is being subsidized, though defenders of the program do their best to disseminate misleading interpretations of the meaning of “essential air service.” What is being subsidized is business and tourist travel. This program is not giving aid to the destitute. It is not feeding starving children. It is simply utilizing taxpayers’ money to allow businessmen and tourists to pay less than the full cost of their transportation. The subsidy can be substantial. On one series of routes in New England it amounts to about $40 per passenger. In Montana, it amounts to $90 per passenger, in Arizona to $200, and in one section of Nebraska over $600 per passenger.
SOURCE: http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/essential-air-service-subsidies-just-plane-foolish/

The DOT stepped in to preserve service to Macon under something called the Essential Air Service program.

A vestige of the long-ago days of regulated air service, when a federal board oversaw air routes and prices, the program ensures that certain smaller cities and rural areas are not left without service. The subsidy supplements the revenue of an airline chosen for the route.

After Delta said it would pull its flights from Macon, the DOT paid Delta to continue the service until it chose tiny GeorgiaSkies to take over. But GeorgiaSkies, which flies from Atlanta to Macon four times a day, has carried far fewer passengers than Delta.

The number of people flying the route last year averaged out to fewer than five a day each way. The DOT agreed to give GeorgiaSkies a $1.4 million subsidy, which worked out to $464 per round-trip passenger.

“That’s outrageous,” said Christopher Pelletier, one of two passengers -- not counting a reporter and photographer -- on a return flight to Atlanta Monday. He is from Seattle and has taken the Atlanta-Macon flight several times to visit family in the Warner Robins area. He said there’s never been more than one other passenger.

The service is a convenience, he said, adding, “but we’re all paying for that.”
SOURCE: http://www.ajc.com/business/atlanta-macon-flights-draw-569950.html

OCKLAWAHA

[RMHoward]

quote
"I will shut up and cry when you can point out for me how much "profit" we made off of I-10, JTB, Roosevelt or I-95 last year"

I didnt argue for profit. I said they loose billions of dollars.  I dont want Amtrak to make a profit, just be self sustaining, at the very least.  Those roads you mention are used to full capacity, at least.  So, i think maybe we get a return on investment that way for our tax dollars. Another obvious difference is that i dont have to go to a ticket window infinitum every time i want to use I-10, JTB, Roosevelt, or I-95. 
Rick

So, how exactly did the roads break even then?  How are they 'self sustaining'?

Normally, roads are utilized to excess capacity before construction of new roads begins.  We dont normally build roads without a need. From a common sense perspective, i would say we get our money's worth on most roads, therefore break even. As far as i know, Highway administrators dont appear before congress regularly asking for billions with promises of shutting highways down if they dont get it.  I will accept not appearing before an appropriations committe regularly demanding billions in order to continue operations as a pretty good definition of self sustaining.  Keep in mind, one can be against passenger rail and also be against unneeded roads. 

[RMHoward]

Im still missing it, RMHoward.  Do the roads bring in income that pays for their existence?

Or are you holding the two forms of transportation to two entirely different standards?

1. I believe everyone who drives on roads pays a federal fuel excise tax, proceeds of which are used for other transportation projects.  Heard of that particular tax Stephen?  So, yes roads bring in income that pay for their existence.   Highways support interstate commerce which supports numerous tax bases assiociated with the sale of goods and services.  Highways move goods which are sold (sales taxes) and help to provide jobs (income taxes).  Taxes = revenue for state and federal governments. 

2.  No, i dont think so.  At this particular time in our history, there is an huge demand for one mode of transportation, not so much for the other. 

3.  Also, commuter rail rarely takes a person exactly where he/she wants to go and will always be that way.  We still rely on one of those other evil modes of transportation go get us there, whether its a smoke bellowing bus, or the Chevy Obama Volt taxi traveling over highways and biways. One mode of transportation can survive without the other, while the other cant.

Rick

[RMHoward]

Over 2,000 persons a day roll into Florida on 3 Amtrak trains. That is potentially 2,000 less automobiles on our roads for the investment of just 3 trains - imagine what the multiplier effect of that could be if we really supported them.

Guess you don't fly either?

What is “necessary” or “indispensable” about flying largely empty aircraft around various parts of the country? The official definition of what is “essential air service” is determined in a completely arbitrary and silly fashion. If a point on the map had scheduled air service at some time during the 1968-78 base period, it is entitled to a subsidy for the provision of scheduled air service until 1988.

Since most of these points receiving scheduled service between 1968 and 1978 were also receiving subsidies for this service, the decisive criterion for future subsidy is a historical demonstration of previously unviable or inefficient air service operations. In other words, past waste serves as the justification for future waste.

There should be no misunderstanding of what is being subsidized, though defenders of the program do their best to disseminate misleading interpretations of the meaning of “essential air service.” What is being subsidized is business and tourist travel. This program is not giving aid to the destitute. It is not feeding starving children. It is simply utilizing taxpayers’ money to allow businessmen and tourists to pay less than the full cost of their transportation. The subsidy can be substantial. On one series of routes in New England it amounts to about $40 per passenger. In Montana, it amounts to $90 per passenger, in Arizona to $200, and in one section of Nebraska over $600 per passenger.
SOURCE: http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/essential-air-service-subsidies-just-plane-foolish/

The DOT stepped in to preserve service to Macon under something called the Essential Air Service program.

A vestige of the long-ago days of regulated air service, when a federal board oversaw air routes and prices, the program ensures that certain smaller cities and rural areas are not left without service. The subsidy supplements the revenue of an airline chosen for the route.

After Delta said it would pull its flights from Macon, the DOT paid Delta to continue the service until it chose tiny GeorgiaSkies to take over. But GeorgiaSkies, which flies from Atlanta to Macon four times a day, has carried far fewer passengers than Delta.

The number of people flying the route last year averaged out to fewer than five a day each way. The DOT agreed to give GeorgiaSkies a $1.4 million subsidy, which worked out to $464 per round-trip passenger.

“That’s outrageous,” said Christopher Pelletier, one of two passengers -- not counting a reporter and photographer -- on a return flight to Atlanta Monday. He is from Seattle and has taken the Atlanta-Macon flight several times to visit family in the Warner Robins area. He said there’s never been more than one other passenger.

The service is a convenience, he said, adding, “but we’re all paying for that.”
SOURCE: http://www.ajc.com/business/atlanta-macon-flights-draw-569950.html

OCKLAWAHA

Wow, Ock, a whole 2,000??  Are you kidding?  That represents the Buckman bridge traffic in lets say 5 minutes, in one direction.  That greatly supports your point.  And what is the daily infrastructure costs of supporting those 3 trains and the rails they roll upon? 

[Ocklawaha]

Anyone that doubts that JTA COULD INDEED use the upper Ortega/McGirts Creek from A landing south of Blanding to Yukon/NAS JAX, Lakeshore, Cedar River, Downtown to mitigate the traffic in and out of the base, take a look at Europe's Crinin Canal. This narrow waterway, arguably narrower then a cleaned up Ortega would be, not only serves commercial and pleasure craft, but also the Royal Navy!


Royal Navy, Archer class patrol boat certainly takes up some space, but it's still doable!


Sailboats are deep draft craft (IE: there is as much boat UNDER the water as you see on top of it) yet they manage in the narrow waterways all over the EU.

DOES ANYBODY ELSE SEE ANY POSSIBILITIES HERE? UH? JTA should make the new Collins Road Bridge somewhat higher...



BOTH PHOTOS ABOVE - CRININ CANAL.



Compare these photos with the narrow canal above... GET OUT OF THE BOX JTA!



Same waterway different continent?



OCKLAWAHA

[RMHoward]

so roads are paid for entirely with tax money?

Also, there is another use for rail that you might have heard of.  Freight.

It is in fact where the backbone of the US commercial transportation takes place.  There is a helpful article on the subject at wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freight_train 

Yea Stephen,
Well unless you or your friends are willing to make contributions to the effort, yea tax dollars pay for governement projects.  Thats the way it works.  As far as freight goes, im all for movement of freight via rails.  Its has become very efficient with the improved interface between ports/railroads.  In fact there are a number of private companies, ie CSX, FEC, to name a few that do it very profitably.  Its profitable because there is a demand for their services.   Never did i try to argue agains freight. Nice try though.

[Ocklawaha]

Wow, Ock, a whole 2,000??  Are you kidding?  That represents the Buckman bridge traffic in lets say 5 minutes, in one direction.  That greatly supports your point.  And what is the daily infrastructure costs of supporting those 3 trains and the rails they roll upon? 

Yes it's actually 2,712 daily on the three trains... and yes that is about xx minutes on the Buckman in the morning or evening. Now imagine how much cheaper Amtrak-Florida would become if the expense was spread out among 6 trains? Maybe 12? How about 24? You see it gets cheaper per train with every new train added. Station, plant, equipment costs raise very little... Passenger revenues rise quickly.

Look at what North Carolina has done... Oh and their no where near finished. What plans they have!

Amtrak ridership surges in North Carolina, on Triangle route
Triangle Business Journal - by Chris Baysden
Date: Friday, October 15, 2010, 2:44pm EDT - Last Modified: Friday, October 15, 2010, 3:13pm EDT
Related:
Travel
Enlarge Image

Passengers board an Amtrak train in Raleigh.

North Carolina’s Amtrak ridership grew 15 percent in fiscal year 2010 â€" more than double the national Amtrak ridership growth rate during the same period, according to a statement issued Friday by the North Carolina Department of Transportation.

The state-owned Piedmont, which travels four times daily between Raleigh and Charlotte, had the largest percentage increase in the nation at 46 percent. One reason for this increase is that mid-day service was added in June, NCDOT said.

Piedmont revenue grew 39 percent in the past year, from $1.12 million in fiscal year 2009 to $1.56 million in fiscal 2010. Revenue on the Carolinian line, which also runs through the Triangle, jumped 18 percent from $14.71 million in 2009 to $17.33 million in 2010.

North Carolina’s Amtrak ridership in the last fiscal year jumped up from 688,595 to 791,157. Ticket revenue increased more than 19 percent.

Amtrak National ridership, which includes all trains that run throughout the country, grew by 5.7 percent over 2009 from just over 27 million to 28.7 million passengers in 2010. Revenue rose nearly 9 percent in 2010.


Read more: Amtrak ridership surges in North Carolina, on Triangle route | Triangle Business Journal
http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2010/10/11/daily69.html

OCKLAWAHA