Are we losing our rights in the name of safety?

[Lunican]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/apps/cvp/3.0/swf/cnn_416x234_embed.swf?context=embed&videoId=us/2010/11/15/ac.anger.at.airport.screenings.cnn

[KenFSU]

Have you guys completely forgotten that there are bad people out here in the "real world" and they'd like to kill you and me. Get use to this as long as the materials to make explosives continue to not be controlled.

You speak like this is a new development. Throughout our nation's history, there have always been outside threats. And the means to create explosives have always been available to those willing to seek them out.

[vicupstate]

I"m not sure what everyone is upset about...have you guys completely forgotten that there are bad people out here in the "real world" and they'd like to kill you and me. Once you step out of your home in modern day American you cannot expect any privacy. If you want privacy either drive or stay home. Get use to this as long as the materials to make explosives continue to not be controlled. Anyone complaining or refusing a search should be exited from the building. I'd rather know that everyone on my plane was safe. If your ego is so fragil that a pat down sends you into a fit...."STAY HOME".

None of that is the point.

Actually, it is exactly the point.  if you don't have scans and you don't allow pat downs, how will you prevent terrorists exploiting that loophole to their benefit and our deteriment?

[KenFSU]

Actually, it is exactly the point.  if you don't have scans and you don't allow pat downs, how will you prevent terrorists exploiting that loophole to their benefit and our deteriment?

The key is, there are perfectly acceptable non-invasive ways to accomplish the same goal. I have no problem having my bags x-rayed. I have no problem walking through a metal detector. I have no problem walking through an explosive-detecting puffer machine. I can chalk all of these steps up as acceptable precaution. Beyond that, there is zero reason that I should be looked at naked, or that I should be groped by a TSA goon.

If some evil supervillian terrorist finds a way to defy science and somehow build both an explosive device and a means to detonate it without using metal and without using known explosives, and then boards my high-risk flight from Jacksonville to Tampa with said device thoughtfully smuggled behind his left testicle or jammed up his rectum, let him kill me.

[JaxNative68]

I"m not sure what everyone is upset about...have you guys completely forgotten that there are bad people out here in the "real world" and they'd like to kill you and me. Once you step out of your home in modern day American you cannot expect any privacy. If you want privacy either drive or stay home. Get use to this as long as the materials to make explosives continue to not be controlled. Anyone complaining or refusing a search should be exited from the building. I'd rather know that everyone on my plane was safe. If your ego is so fragil that a pat down sends you into a fit...."STAY HOME".

None of that is the point.

Actually, it is exactly the point.  if you don't have scans and you don't allow pat downs, how will you prevent terrorists exploiting that loophole to their benefit and our deteriment?

Whats to prevent 'the terrorists' from dropping meteors on your house if we don't immediately forces all homeowners to begin living in underground caves? 

that is the most idiotic response I have heard on this thread.

[ChriswUfGator]

I"m not sure what everyone is upset about...have you guys completely forgotten that there are bad people out here in the "real world" and they'd like to kill you and me. Once you step out of your home in modern day American you cannot expect any privacy. If you want privacy either drive or stay home. Get use to this as long as the materials to make explosives continue to not be controlled. Anyone complaining or refusing a search should be exited from the building. I'd rather know that everyone on my plane was safe. If your ego is so fragil that a pat down sends you into a fit...."STAY HOME".

None of that is the point.

Actually, it is exactly the point.  if you don't have scans and you don't allow pat downs, how will you prevent terrorists exploiting that loophole to their benefit and our deteriment?

Whats to prevent 'the terrorists' from dropping meteors on your house if we don't immediately forces all homeowners to begin living in underground caves? 

That's the point.

The additional security measures are draconian, unconstitutional,  and aren't accomplishing much.

At what point do we draw the line? You can never eliminate all risk. It's supposed to be about finding a balance that sensibly limits risk without causing such hardship that the terrorists have already won without lifting a finger.

[Jumpinjack]

In this morning's paper article, Mica was promoting private security for use at Florida airports. Whatz up?

[Cricket]

Touchy-feely at Denver International Airport:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/19/airport.security.issues/index.html?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

So basically we're damned if we do damned if we don't.  I hear the cry of "too much this" and "too invasive that" and hell, if the people aren't happy then I won't be re-elected.  And I hear you, "If I get blown up, so what."  Let your kids know you feel that way.

So what's the plan?  Do we stop making everyone uncomfortable until another plane blows up or do we keep everything as is?

I don't know the validity of the site that I'm posting this info from, but according to the table below, hijacked planes resulting in fatality aren't a common thing - and non-existant from 2001-2009.  Ask yourself, is this due to the heightened security or is it because there is no table that tells us how many others were avoided due to these new measures.

Hijacking (resulting in fatalities)
07/16/1948 Pacific Ocean Cathay Pacific AW Crashed after being hijacked and losing control during a struggle in the cockpit.
11/01/1958 Nipe Bay, Cuba Cubana Crashed after being hijacked and running out of fuel. 
04/28/1960 Calabozo, Venezuela Linea Aero. Venezolana Detonation of a hand-grenade brought aboard by a Russian immigrant.
05/07/1964 San Ramon, California Pacific AL Francisco Gonzales, a passenger, shot both the pilot and first officer. 
01/23/1971 Korean Air Lines Sokcho, South Korea A hijacker detonated grenades he was carrying.
12/06/1971 Tikaka, Sudan Sudan AW Hijacked and ran out of fuel.
05/18/1973 Chita, Russia Aeroflot Detonation of a bomb in the cabin being carried by a hijacker.
09/15/1974 Phan Rang, Vietnam Air Vietnam Detonation of two hand grenades in the passenger compartment by a hijacker. 
05/23/1976 Zamboanga, Philippines Philippine AL A hijacker set off grenades in the cabin.
06/27/1976 Entebbe, Uganda Air France Seven passengers were killed during a commando raid by Israeli forces.
12/04/1977 Kampung Ladang, Malaysia Malaysia AL Hijacked with both pilots shot. 
06/14/1985 Athens, Greece Trans World AL U.S. Navy diver Robert Stethem was murdered aboard by hijackers.
11/24/1985 Luqa, Malta Egyptair Several hand grenades were thrown into the cabin causing a fire.
09/05/1986 Karachi, Pakistan Pan American AW Hijackers opened fire on the passengers and crew and threw grenades among them.
12/25/1986 Ay, Saudi Arabia Iraqi AW Two hand grenades exploded in the cockpit causing the plane to lose control & crash.
07/24/1987 Geneva, Switzerland Air Afrique A hijacker killed one passenger before the plane was stormed by troops. 
12/07/1987 San Luis Obispo, California  Pacific Southwest AL  David Burk, a fired employee, shot the pilot and first officer. 
04/05/1988 Combi, Cyprus Kuwait AW Two hostages killed on the ground by hijackers. 
10/02/1990 Guangzhou, China Xiamen/China SW AL After a struggle in the cockpit with a hijacker the pilot hit three parked planes. 
08/28/1993 Khorag, Tajikistan Tadzhikistan Nat. AL The crew was coerced into taking off with an overloaded plane by armed hijackers.
12/26/1994 Algiers, Algeria Air France Three passengers and four hijackers were killed when the plane was stormed.
11/23/1996 Moroni, Comoros Islands Ethiopian AL The plane was hijacked and ran out of fuel crashing in the ocean.
07/23/1999 Tokyo, Japan All Nippon AW The plane crashed after the pilot was stabbed by a mentally ill passenger. 
12/24/1999 Amritsar, India Indian Airlines One crew member was killed after the plane was hijacked. 
05/25/2000 Manila, Philippines  Philippine Air Lines A hijacker was killed after jumping out of plane with a homemade parachute. 
03/15/2001 Medina, Saudi Arabia Vnukovo Airlines Three people were killed after the hijacked plane was stormed. 
09/11/2001 New York, New York American AL Hijacked and flown into the twin towers in New York. 
09/11/2001 New York, New York United AL Hijacked and flown into the twin towers in New York. 
09/11/2001 Arlington, Virginia American AL Hijacked and flown into the Pentagon.
09/11/2001 Shanksville, Pennsylvania United AL Hijacked and flown into the ground in Pennsylvania.

http://planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm

[uptowngirl]

Here is a question for you...

All of these procedures were put in place in RESPONSE to an attempt, so in other words in reaction to a failed attempt. How safe is that? So whatever procedure is put in place the terrorist will find a new way to try and get a weapon on board. So where does it all stop? And how safe can we be using reactionary defense measures to try and protect ourselves?

[cityimrov]

Tyranny of the majority?

I'm guessing 80% of citizens want a fully scrutinized flying experience.  They don't care if TSA has to strip search (and cavity search with reasonable cause) everyone, just as long as the plane looks safe.  They would rather be vastly overprotected then under protected.  My guess is these people are also rare or casuals who only fly every so often.  As an individual, they rarely fly but as a group, they are a large portion of fliers.  

Then we have the FlyerTalk.com crowd.  Their jobs depend on convenient air travel.  They are the ones who have to put up with the TSA on a daily basis.  From what I'm seeing, they are about ready to riot.  They want change but for the most part, they have very little power compared to the masses.

I think the problem we have now is similar to if California controlled the government of Florida because California has more people than Florida.  TSA is the product of the tyranny of the majority who really don't care nor fly much.  For the most part, it's not their problem!  The majority of us rarely fly. 

[ChriswUfGator]

So basically we're damned if we do damned if we don't.  I hear the cry of "too much this" and "too invasive that" and hell, if the people aren't happy then I won't be re-elected.  And I hear you, "If I get blown up, so what."  Let your kids know you feel that way.

So what's the plan?  Do we stop making everyone uncomfortable until another plane blows up or do we keep everything as is?

I don't know the validity of the site that I'm posting this info from, but according to the table below, hijacked planes resulting in fatality aren't a common thing - and non-existant from 2001-2009.  Ask yourself, is this due to the heightened security or is it because there is no table that tells us how many others were avoided due to these new measures.

Hijacking (resulting in fatalities)
07/16/1948 Pacific Ocean Cathay Pacific AW Crashed after being hijacked and losing control during a struggle in the cockpit.
11/01/1958 Nipe Bay, Cuba Cubana Crashed after being hijacked and running out of fuel.  
04/28/1960 Calabozo, Venezuela Linea Aero. Venezolana Detonation of a hand-grenade brought aboard by a Russian immigrant.
05/07/1964 San Ramon, California Pacific AL Francisco Gonzales, a passenger, shot both the pilot and first officer.  
01/23/1971 Korean Air Lines Sokcho, South Korea A hijacker detonated grenades he was carrying.
12/06/1971 Tikaka, Sudan Sudan AW Hijacked and ran out of fuel.
05/18/1973 Chita, Russia Aeroflot Detonation of a bomb in the cabin being carried by a hijacker.
09/15/1974 Phan Rang, Vietnam Air Vietnam Detonation of two hand grenades in the passenger compartment by a hijacker.  
05/23/1976 Zamboanga, Philippines Philippine AL A hijacker set off grenades in the cabin.
06/27/1976 Entebbe, Uganda Air France Seven passengers were killed during a commando raid by Israeli forces.
12/04/1977 Kampung Ladang, Malaysia Malaysia AL Hijacked with both pilots shot.  
06/14/1985 Athens, Greece Trans World AL U.S. Navy diver Robert Stethem was murdered aboard by hijackers.
11/24/1985 Luqa, Malta Egyptair Several hand grenades were thrown into the cabin causing a fire.
09/05/1986 Karachi, Pakistan Pan American AW Hijackers opened fire on the passengers and crew and threw grenades among them.
12/25/1986 Ay, Saudi Arabia Iraqi AW Two hand grenades exploded in the cockpit causing the plane to lose control & crash.
07/24/1987 Geneva, Switzerland Air Afrique A hijacker killed one passenger before the plane was stormed by troops.  
12/07/1987 San Luis Obispo, California  Pacific Southwest AL  David Burk, a fired employee, shot the pilot and first officer.  
04/05/1988 Combi, Cyprus Kuwait AW Two hostages killed on the ground by hijackers.  
10/02/1990 Guangzhou, China Xiamen/China SW AL After a struggle in the cockpit with a hijacker the pilot hit three parked planes.  
08/28/1993 Khorag, Tajikistan Tadzhikistan Nat. AL The crew was coerced into taking off with an overloaded plane by armed hijackers.
12/26/1994 Algiers, Algeria Air France Three passengers and four hijackers were killed when the plane was stormed.
11/23/1996 Moroni, Comoros Islands Ethiopian AL The plane was hijacked and ran out of fuel crashing in the ocean.
07/23/1999 Tokyo, Japan All Nippon AW The plane crashed after the pilot was stabbed by a mentally ill passenger.  
12/24/1999 Amritsar, India Indian Airlines One crew member was killed after the plane was hijacked.  
05/25/2000 Manila, Philippines  Philippine Air Lines A hijacker was killed after jumping out of plane with a homemade parachute.  
03/15/2001 Medina, Saudi Arabia Vnukovo Airlines Three people were killed after the hijacked plane was stormed.  
09/11/2001 New York, New York American AL Hijacked and flown into the twin towers in New York.  
09/11/2001 New York, New York United AL Hijacked and flown into the twin towers in New York.  
09/11/2001 Arlington, Virginia American AL Hijacked and flown into the Pentagon.
09/11/2001 Shanksville, Pennsylvania United AL Hijacked and flown into the ground in Pennsylvania.

http://planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm

That kind of proves what we're saying, doesn't it?

To begin with, that's not a very extensive list considering it spans some 63 years. Compare that tiny number to the number of flights operated worldwide on a daily basis and you'll see my point about just how infinitessimally small the risk really is. Secondly, following the additional security measures implemented after 9/11, there have been zero. What we have in place is already effective. The most effective two things we've done are A: Reinforcing the cockpit so that it's no longer possible to break in and take over the plane, and then B: Arming the pilots. That solved the 9/11 scenario right there.

The rest of this B.S. is just the TSA not knowing when to stop, and lobbying on behalf of equipment manufacturers subverting decision making so the government spends a ton of money on the machines.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

That kind of proves what we're saying, doesn't it?

To begin with, that's not a very extensive list considering it spans some 63 years. Compare that tiny number to the number of flights operated worldwide on a daily basis and you'll see my point about just how infinitessimally small the risk really is. Secondly, following the additional security measures implemented after 9/11, there have been zero. What we have in place is already effective. The most effective two things we've done are A: Reinforcing the cockpit so that it's no longer possible to break in and take over the plane, and then B: Arming the pilots. That solved the 9/11 scenario right there.

The rest of this B.S. is just the TSA not knowing when to stop, and lobbying on behalf of equipment manufacturers subverting decision making so the government spends a ton of money on the machines.

One of the few time that I'm not arguing the point.  I don't fly nearly enough (once or twice a year) to be inconvienenced by this, so in all reality, it doesn't pertain to me, but I can understand the frustration from people who travel almost on a daily basis.  That's why, in my eyes, it's a no win situation.  There are too many people, like myself, who feel the need for all of the security 24/7/365 so that I feel safe when I fly during the holidays, but on the flip side, there are a lot of people such as uptown who fly regularly and it just becomes a hassle.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

There was talk about frequent flyers getting special ids, passes, something that would let them skip the TSA BS, but how long would it take for someone to get the same pass that has less than desirable intentions.  Once again, Catch 22.

So, while I can sympathize with those of you who have to deal with the daily BS, I can't empathize with you, because I only have to deal with the hassle a few times per year and it does make me feel safer.

On another note, if you check out the website, there were more crashes with fatalities because of planes running out of fuel opposed to being hijacked.  Just a thought.

[uptowngirl]

because I only have to deal with the hassle a few times per year and it does make me feel safer.

That is pretty disturbing, "it makes you FEEL safer" but that is about it because the molestation of your fellow citizens is certainly not MAKING you safer.  Based on that line of thought, some would FEEL safer if we just locked up all african american males between the ages of 18-25, but no one would actually BE safer. So where does this abuse of rights in order for the majority to feel better stop?

Crazy people on a religious mission will not stop, so what is left for them? Storing bombs on little children? Would you FEEL safer if 2yr olds had body cavity searches done?