Update from Tampa

[Ocklawaha]

"Steve Polzin, didn't attend the vote..." and thus we know the origin of the stupidity in Tampa. This guy is a "genius" and is the mouthpiece of the BRT industry, just check some of these out:

http://www.google.com/search?q=BRT+BETTER+THEN+RAIL+POLZIN&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Lake, I would like to see numbers on DMU'S as a economic engine. Frankly I doubt it exists as the vehicles are much more of a Commuter Rail vehicle then they are a LRT-STREETCAR type. Thus if I had to place them in some order (FSUJAX? TUFSU? jump in here if you'd like) I'd say...  STREETCAR = up graded bus,  LRT = up graded BRT, DMU = up graded intercity motor coach, RDC = micro scale Amtrak like experience, PUSH-PULL COMMUTER TRAINS = a higher capacity Amtrak like train. The RDC AND DMU come from the same heritage, but the newer DMU units are intended as short haul vehicles and the RDC MOST CERTAINLY WAS NOT! *

OCKLAWAHA

* Choctaw Rocket RDC (Memphisâ€"Little Rockâ€"Oklahoma Cityâ€"Amarilloâ€"Tucumcari)

[tufsu1]

I wonder if they have economic development estimates for BRT and LRT? 

this is what they are still working on...supposed to be done by December

[thelakelander]

"Steve Polzin, didn't attend the vote..." and thus we know the origin of the stupidity in Tampa. This guy is a "genius" and is the mouthpiece of the BRT industry, just check some of these out:

http://www.google.com/search?q=BRT+BETTER+THEN+RAIL+POLZIN&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Lake, I would like to see numbers on DMU'S as a economic engine. Frankly I doubt it exists as the vehicles are much more of a Commuter Rail vehicle then they are a LRT-STREETCAR type. Thus if I had to place them in some order (FSUJAX? TUFSU? jump in here if you'd like) I'd say...  STREETCAR = up graded bus,  LRT = up graded BRT, DMU = up graded intercity motor coach, RDC = micro scale Amtrak like experience, PUSH-PULL COMMUTER TRAINS = a higher capacity Amtrak like train. The RDC AND DMU come from the same heritage, but the newer DMU units are intended as short haul vehicles and the RDC MOST CERTAINLY WAS NOT! *

OCKLAWAHA

* Choctaw Rocket RDC (Memphisâ€"Little Rockâ€"Oklahoma Cityâ€"Amarilloâ€"Tucumcari)

I you're not to fond of the DMU but Austin's has spurred TOD.  All of the developments shown in this article have been built along this line, since the groundbreaking of Capital Metrorail.  Take a look here:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-may-metrorail-commuter-line-opens-in-austin

[Ocklawaha]

WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT:


FLORIDA'S CHOICE... (Out of business and reopening under another brand)


SIEMENS DESIRO... LAKES Favorite?


The RDC, OCKLAWAHA'S gospel of if it ain't broke - don't fix it... Introduced in 1949 and still being put in service.

The DMU'S have a few sticking points with me that I personally haven't been able to digest. Being DIESEL they are naturally louder-dirty-and much more $$ to maintain and operate. The RDC (which COULD BE revived in a modern incarnation by IRS in Canada) is generally much more economical PMPG then the DMU'S the COLORADO RAILCAR DMU "Florida's approved choice" is only about 1/2 as efficient as the RDC.

I'm quite happy to see Austin IS IN FACT getting development from the DMU commuter line, it will be interesting to see how the Vehicle holds up to the branchline hill and dale nature of the route. For our own former SEABOARD - JACKSONVILLE BELT RAILROAD/FERNANDINA AND JACKSONVILLE "s" line segment, which was once a high speed mainline I'd love to see us with a couple of RDC'S on the old racetrack. They were built by the same company that built some of the SEABOARDS fleet, and ought to be a hell of a comfortable match.

NOW! If we could JUST get a demo!

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock, I was just struck by a thought......why not a demonstration? Maybe JTA could be convinced with something concrete before them? Maybe CSX could be persuaded to loan their tracks for a trial run? Or maybe the S Line trackage is in useable shape for a demo run?

[thelakelander]

RDC or DMU really doesn't matter to me from a TOD perspective.  TOD is impacted more by the service than the actual rail vehicle.  In the case of Austin's commuter rail, the DMU and RDC both would stimulate TOD as long as the headways are decent and the system is reliable.

[tufsu1]

They have it for referendum this tuesday.  Its her opinion that if the referendum for the tax fails, then the conversation about rail is over.

I disagree...it took more than once to approve in cities like Phoenix, Miami, and Houston...it is expected that the pro-rail people will tweak the plan and bring it back in 2012...in the meantime, Pinellas may bring their transporttion tax to referendum in 2011.

[tufsu1]

What happens to the rail plans in Tampa now?

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/nov/02/022250/early-votes-show-heavy-opposition-to-rail-tax/news-metro/

[thelakelander]

They should regroup by focusing on establishing an affordable "short" starter line without attempting to raise taxes first.  Or better yet, work to get more utilization out of the existing 2.5 mile streetcar system.  Give people a chance to see good transit in action locally before acting like a vagrant.

[fsujax]

It will come back. I believe Tampa put the cart before the horse. They should have had the plan already set and ready to go. Too many questions were still left unanswered.

[tufsu1]

I agree fsujax....I think they will finish their AA study, get some other things cleared up (like what is the potential for express bus and managed lanes from the outside counties), and then go back out to the voters.

[Dog Walker]

Ock,  A technical question about the Siemens Desiro:

Siemens makes buses with a diesel generator and DC motors attached to all wheels.  It makes it possible to really clean up and silence the diesel motor since it runs at a constant speed (except when the bus is stopped).  Since there is no transmission and all the wheels are drivers, the buses are really smooth to ride; no lurches as the transmission shifts.

Their system has been adapted for yachts since it allows one engine to run two propellers, eliminates the transmissions and allows for different placement of the engine.

Does the Desiro use the same system?  If so, it eliminates some of the opposition to diesel power; noisy, dirty, etc.

[JeffreyS]

Ock, I was just struck by a thought......why not a demonstration? Maybe JTA could be convinced with something concrete before them? Maybe CSX could be persuaded to loan their tracks for a trial run? Or maybe the S Line trackage is in useable shape for a demo run?

I think the problem with this idea is the main benfit to fixed rail is not ridership it is surrounding economics impact. Temporary does not breed that the same way "flexible" would not. And now you really have to be able to sell the "Tea Party" wave that direct receipts are not the only income you see from investment in infrastructure. Not that they want to spend a dime to make a dollar anyway. Not a cheap shot it just seems their hope is if the government stays out of things the benevolent "invisible hand" of Adam Smith will save the day.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock,  A technical question about the Siemens Desiro:

Siemens makes buses with a diesel generator and DC motors attached to all wheels.  It makes it possible to really clean up and silence the diesel motor since it runs at a constant speed (except when the bus is stopped).  Since there is no transmission and all the wheels are drivers, the buses are really smooth to ride; no lurches as the transmission shifts.

Their system has been adapted for yachts since it allows one engine to run two propellers, eliminates the transmissions and allows for different placement of the engine.

Does the Desiro use the same system?  If so, it eliminates some of the opposition to diesel power; noisy, dirty, etc.

I think your referring to their "Active Motor Management," system. The Desiro is available with several packages as it's components are modular. The down side of any of the new active motor systems, as well as exotic combination of fuels, generators, and converters, is that the diesel runs at a MUCH higher RPM. This can (and will) create internal havoc, melting wires, knocking out electronics and electrical components and just about anything else extreme heat can do.  Bus fleet operators are having to retro-fit many of the new "super fuel sipping buses," with heat shields, covers, protective coatings etc.

I don't know the mechanics all that well but give me a Dedec 400 with an Eaton Automatic Transmission...

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

There may be hope yet for the Tampa Bay area...this makes sense!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/nov/19/tbarta-talking-to-csx-about-using-tracks-for-regio/