Update from Tampa

[tufsu1]

Wow.  They don't have real numbers and they're asking for a tax increase to fund this stuff? Maybe its just me but they appear to be doing things backwards.

heck...they haven't chosen a preferred alignment yet, voted to extend the study routes 2 months ago, and just chose LRT over bus as the preferred mode...their argument is approve the funsing source and the general concepts and let us implement....time will tell if that works

[fsujax]

oh but TUFSU, they have not killed the BRT concept I read an article today that said BRT is still on the table!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/oct/18/hart-leaves-open-chance-of-bus-rapid-transit-inste/news-lightrail/

[Ocklawaha]

Not really a bad plan Lake, its the same thing San Diego did on the famous Tijuana Trolley line, 15 miles, and a good portion of it on freight rail with a Temporal Separation. The CSX is not likely switching 24/7, in fact bet knowing the CSX when traffic fell off the customers were lucky to see a locomotive tri-weekly. Even though traffic is astronomical compaired to a few years back, Temporal is still possible like the Jersey River Line LRT. It started off with a day-passenger/night-freight deal like San Diego until a couple of big name customers needed a mid-day switch and the FRA-NS-and RIVER LINE, cut out some fancy logistics for a mid-day run around. Also MUCH of the Dallas DART LRT is on old or current railroad freight right-of-way though I saw no evidence of a mix. On the NW Garland route is sandwiched between active freight for miles and miles.

Fact is, in spite of the modern day "can't mix" rules and mentality, they in fact CAN AND DO. It seems to be forgotten by today's planners 99% of whom were not alive when the last classic interurban railroads bit the dust, that INTERURBANS, the grandfathers of LRT, were almost ALL both a freight and passenger operation. Box cars on Main Street? YOU BET!

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

oh but TUFSU, they have not killed the BRT concept I read an article today that said BRT is still on the table!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/oct/18/hart-leaves-open-chance-of-bus-rapid-transit-inste/news-lightrail/

yes....their existing BRT plan is being designed...and construction on the first line should be done in 2012

what they did for the Alternative Analysis report was decide that rail was better than bus (you have to look at various modes as part of the study) for these corridors.

The problem that now arises is that BRT down Nebraska Ave. will only be 2 blocks from LRT down I-275 

[thelakelander]

My suggestion is to explore purchasing the CSX line and going with DMU at least initially.  That will immediately give them an already constructed route stretching from USF to South Tampa.  Even with track improvements, it will be cheaper than building it down the middle of I-275 and makes more sense than paralleling BRT a block or two away.

[CS Foltz]

+1.5

[tufsu1]

My suggestion is to explore purchasing the CSX line and going with DMU at least initially.  That will immediately give them an already constructed route stretching from USF to South Tampa.  Even with track improvements, it will be cheaper than building it down the middle of I-275 and makes more sense than paralleling BRT a block or two away.

agreed...it also allows commuter rail to/from Pasco and Pinellas....as the 97 miles includes freight lines in both counties

[Ocklawaha]

More importantly for JACKSONVILLE is the former TAMPA NORTHERN RR (Seaboard Air Line Ry and current CSX) route North from Tampa along the route of the sometimes rumored west coast-jax turnpike. The line runs today from Tampa, north, and IS the line in the current LRT question. It ends a few miles north of Brooksville where CSX cut it. The right of way's (actually two of them for about 50% of the distance) runs from Brooksville to Inverness to a point south of Dunnellon. From Dunnellon north to Jacksonville there is still track in place via Alachua and Starke. There are also INTACT right-of-way's from this route through Gainesville to Waldo and hence north to Jacksonville. Here are the maps as I see them...


Florida railroad map current


Florida's railroad vision (more like a nightmare)


Florida's railroad vision with an Ocklawaha stamp of approval, note the red lines I added are REBUILT ON CURRENT ABANDONED FORMER RAILROAD RIGHT-OF-WAY.

Just think what this would do for our intra-state passenger rail possibilities...

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock...............I do agree and this has triggered a question regarding ROW. Abandoned ROW, I am assuming, is just that, but who if anyone has the right to acquire it.......the people who abandoned it in the first place or can just anyone make a bid for it as is? How would one go about finding out? I ask since this is more your domain than mine!

[thelakelander]

^The ROW is owned by someone...most likely the railroad or local government. 

[CS Foltz]

OK thanks for the info lake.............then it is not really abandoned but just not used! I could see where State or local governements, within their township or whatever, could retain ownership if they still did own! Seem's that could be an investor option to procure ROW in selected spots...............I think I need to do some more investigation into the matter...........but thanks!

[tufsu1]

I missed this one...apparently Tampa still hasn't completely scrapped BRT for its premium corridor.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/oct/18/hart-leaves-open-chance-of-bus-rapid-transit-inste/

keep in mind that regardless what they ultimately choose for this corridor, they are still implementing BRT on other corridors.

[thelakelander]

These guys are more clueless than I originally thought.  So let me get this right.  Assuming the premium corridor becomes BRT....

1. If I-275 is chosen as the route, the premium BRT route would run parallel to the Nebraska BRT corridor, which is two blocks east of I-275.

2. If the CSX route is chosen, they actually believe CSX is going to allow them to build a busway on rail ROW, sucking up space for potential additional future rail capacity, as well as increasing the risk of bus/train interaction?

Wow....just wow.....

[thelakelander]

Karen Jaroch, a leader in the No Tax For Tracks movement, pointed to a HART study that showed bus rapid transit annual operational costs of up to $22.75 million compared with $29 million light rail.

Bus rapid transit capital costs for both Tampa corridors would be $1.39 billion, compared with $2.8 billion for light rail, with track and overhead electric power lines adding to train costs.

I wonder if they have economic development estimates for BRT and LRT?  It would also be nice to know if they are considering DMU on existing tracks, which would significantly reduce track and eliminate catenary costs.

[fsujax]

I am not so sure of those operating cost comparisons. In the long run, it is cheaper to operate trains than buses. Just adding capacity alone to a corridor is cheaper with rail than bus.