Discussions about How to Approach Improving JTA.

[Singejoufflue]

I didn't see a notice when I created my profile that said, "Read all posts before commenting or ChriswUfGator will wag his finger in shame, look down his nose and not engage you in discussion." From my assessment, MJ is not representative of the city of Jacksonville.  This board is incredibly well informed and active; the rest of the city not so much.  Using this board as a barometer for what the rest of the city knows is foolhardy at best.

I've done internet research (which is what led me to MJ).  I've read posts upon posts.  Read JTU articles. I had to look up LRT and BRT and TOD because these were acronyms I never used. I've done the research. Let me sum up what I have seen: Hooray light rail! Boo BRT! Skyway sucks! JTA sucks! Bus drivers suck! Customer service sucks! The leadership sucks! Nobody wants transit! We'll give them transit whether they like it or not!

Clearly the issues at hand when this board started are still present.  Perhaps those "solutions" presented to JTA have not been given sufficient consideration or were found to be insufficient in and of themselves. Maybe engaging someone with a different perspective and not one clouded by years of bickering might be beneficial?

Can you talk to me about what you saw and heard at the last JTA meeting you attended when you raised issues and offered all of the solutions you've been presenting these past three years?

[ChriswUfGator]

I didn't see a notice when I created my profile that said, "Read all posts before commenting or ChriswUfGator will wag his finger in shame, look down his nose and not engage you in discussion." From my assessment, MJ is not representative of the city of Jacksonville.  This board is incredibly well informed and active; the rest of the city not so much.  Using this board as a barometer for what the rest of the city knows is foolhardy at best.

I've done internet research (which is what led me to MJ).  I've read posts upon posts.  Read JTU articles. I had to look up LRT and BRT and TOD because these were acronyms I never used. I've done the research. Let me sum up what I have seen: Hooray light rail! Boo BRT! Skyway sucks! JTA sucks! Bus drivers suck! Customer service sucks! The leadership sucks! Nobody wants transit! We'll give them transit whether they like it or not!

Clearly the issues at hand when this board started are still present.  Perhaps those "solutions" presented to JTA have not been given sufficient consideration or were found to be insufficient in and of themselves. Maybe engaging someone with a different perspective and not one clouded by years of bickering might be beneficial?

Can you talk to me about what you saw and heard at the last JTA meeting you attended when you raised issues and offered all of the solutions you've been presenting these past three years?

You were the one doing the finger-wagging. And still are. Sorry if pointing it out offends you.

As far as the rest of your post, you really have no idea what you're talking about. You just demonstrated that you haven't read any of the articles that have been posted here at all. Once you have taken the time to educate yourself on this issue, and are prepared to speak to other posters as adults instead of lecturing them like your child, then I'll be happy to resume the debate with you.

Until then, further discussion with you is pointless.

[BridgeTroll]

Hold on a sec guys... please.

She DID post constructively... in fact more than most and from MY perspective her suggestions have been mocked, and dismissed as uninformed.  From what I read this is not the case.  I see someone who is trying to have a discussion and has suggested a public outreach and/or ad campaign to boost ridership and community awareness

Apparently this is an incredibly naive and silly proposition to some.  Again... from MY perspective she is spot on.  It certainly cures nothing and ALL the points made in previous MJ articles are more "nuts and Bolts" or concrete ways to improve the system but dismissing her suggestions out of hand simply stops and stifles input.

[ChriswUfGator]

Hold on a sec guys... please.

She DID post constructively... in fact more than most and from MY perspective her suggestions have been mocked, and dismissed as uninformed.  From what I read this is not the case.  I see someone who is trying to have a discussion and has suggested a public outreach and/or ad campaign to boost ridership and community awareness

Apparently this is an incredibly naive and silly proposition to some.  Again... from MY perspective she is spot on.  It certainly cures nothing and ALL the points made in previous MJ articles are more "nuts and Bolts" or concrete ways to improve the system but dismissing her suggestions out of hand simply stops and stifles input.

Yes she came in after being here 3 months or less, and began stating that all of us who have been here for decades are wrong about JTA having the problems it does, in the face of actual data that conclusively proves JTA is dead last in ridership out of every city with more than 700k people in the entire united states, and second to last out of every city with more than 500k people.

She then stated that JTA should spend money advertising its service rather than first addressing any of the systemic deficiencies. But everyone already knows what JTA is and what it does. Do you really believe that explains why nobody rides it? And do you believe that spending money on advertising JTA is a wise expenditure, when they are already the only major transit authority that has been unable to afford simple bus shelters for its riders?

She has additionally made all of this nonsensical criticism in a tone and manner that suggests she is talking to a 5 year old child, rather than to reasoned adults. E.g., we're all crybabies because "JTA isn't how 'I' want it." How is that possibly constructive? Meanwhile, back in the real world, she hasn't bothered to read a single article this site has done on JTA and mass transit, or the series comparing it to other cities.

All of that has brought us to this point in the discussion. So what do you do with someone who won't do their homework, and then relishes calling everyone who points this out a crybaby? This is really your definition of constructive?    

[BridgeTroll]

Yes indeed it would... I myself would expand the public awareness campaign to teens and students.  Lets face it... we all know JTA has an image problem (along with the obvious infrastructure problems).  This could be looked at as a "chicken and egg type issue.  JTA says... "look at the ridership.  We would love to improve service but we really cannot justify it because so few actually use it".  Mass transit proponents say... " We sure would like a working modern mass transit sytem in place so we could use it."

IMHO... singes suggestion that public outreach is part of the solution is spot on.

[ChriswUfGator]

Hold on a sec guys... please.

She DID post constructively... in fact more than most and from MY perspective her suggestions have been mocked, and dismissed as uninformed.  From what I read this is not the case.  I see someone who is trying to have a discussion and has suggested a public outreach and/or ad campaign to boost ridership and community awareness

Apparently this is an incredibly naive and silly proposition to some.  Again... from MY perspective she is spot on.  It certainly cures nothing and ALL the points made in previous MJ articles are more "nuts and Bolts" or concrete ways to improve the system but dismissing her suggestions out of hand simply stops and stifles input.

Well lets hear them.  What are they?  I really am all ears.

So far, the only suggestion that I have heard is that a marketing campaign should be directed at the middle class, and I can agree with that.  That would raise awareness.

The problem with that is, as I said before, its bad business. You don't want to advertise a substandard service only to have people try it out, hate it, and make them much less likely to ever give it a shot later. That could have us going in reverse.

I think the first priorities need to be constructing bus shelters, improving on time performance, and revamping the route structure to take into account what routes and destinations are convenient to the ridership, rather than just what's convenient to JTA. That would be a good start. Once these basic improvements are in, maybe then we could advertise.

But advertising at this point is premature, both because the money could be better spent on actual improvements that JTA says it is unable to afford, and because you don't want to attract a new demographic only to piss them off so badly with rude service and a substandard product that they'll never come back.

We need to crawl before we walk. What are the odds that any significant number of middle class people are going to ride JTA in it's present state and be happy enough to continue using the service on a regular basis? After the first time they have to stand in the sun or rain waiting for a bus that's an hour late, deal with an obnoxiously rude driver, have to make a bunch of connections, and in the end realize that it just took them hours to go 5 miles, these folks will never come back. The problems need to be fixed first, IMO, or advertising to new demographics would be at best a waste of money, and quite likely could wind up being harmful longterm.  

[ChriswUfGator]

Yes indeed it would... I myself would expand the public awareness campaign to teens and students.  Lets face it... we all know JTA has an image problem (along with the obvious infrastructure problems).  This could be looked at as a "chicken and egg type issue.  JTA says... "look at the ridership.  We would love to improve service but we really cannot justify it because so few actually use it".  Mass transit proponents say... " We sure would like a working modern mass transit sytem in place so we could use it."

IMHO... singes suggestion that public outreach is part of the solution is spot on.

have you used jta services, bridge troll---with any regularity for any time recently?

I made a (truly constructive) suggestion that he take the bus to work this morning, so that he could get a handle on what the problems are that we were discussing, and better understand the issues and possible solutions.

I forget what his response was. But did you take the bus BT?

[Singejoufflue]

I dunno who is suggesting I am shilling for JTA, but if I am, that check must be lost in the mail.  I could use it.

Do I have sufficient credentials to understand the JTA? I lived in Jax from 1986-2004 and returned this summer.  I took the bus from my high school job until I had a car. I took the bus to work when my car exploded in 2003. My Grandmother took JTA from 1973 when she moved to Jacksonville until 1992 when my grandfather retired and could drive her.  My father and I have discussed transit after he was forced to take JTA for three months himself two years ago. Do my personal observations that people don't understand how to use the system matter (as recently as yesterday when nowhere does it show that you have to transfer lines to get to San Marco)?  Do the conversations I've had with friends, strangers and family about their experiences with the system carry any weight? 

My suggestions for improvement:
*Marketing campaign to increase immediate ridership.  (If people are using the system today service won't be cut at 7pm, as is proposed.)
*Improve communication from JTA to public, including more notice regarding meetings, route changes, how to use the system, more timely and detailed budget documentation.
*Separating transit into a unique agency to ensure appropriate focus. 
*Eliminate overlap in routes. 
*Increase frequency during peak transit hours.
*Add more "trolley" style buses along shorter main routes that offer discounted fares to encourage convenience rides.
*Increase express routes from outlying neighborhoods and between major hubs/points of interest.
*Monthly and weekly passes that are not specific (based on first date of use for 30 or 7 days).
*Transit cards that provide transfers.
*Online Bus-tracking systems for all new equipment and plan to retrofit existing.

As for attending meetings, I already advised the agency I am working with I am unavailable the afternoon of the 28th in order to attend the meeting.

I posted this yesterday but was ignored:

Quote from: Singejoufflue on Yesterday at 06:13:06 PM
Applied to this situation: we seem to only focus on articulating how badly we are missing the goal of a successful (not just working) JTA, and have no concern for the process needed to achieve said goal and there is no consensus on how far we are willing to go in order to fix transit.

...before we line up behind any of those proposals, we need to know how much the community is willing to pay.  Not only in financial terms, but in the sacrifice to current users endured during an "in-progress" transformation; in tearing up the roads for YEARS for another project; in changing the mindset of an apathetic community that maybe 20 minutes extra during your commute IS worth it.

[ChriswUfGator]

Most of that list has already been tried, and didn't help much. JTA already has electronic cards, already has monthly passes, already gives decent notice of public meetings (they just hold them at times they know nobody can come), and is itself already a separate agency from DOT etc. Electronic bus tracking systems? If the buses would actually run on their published schedules that would be completely unnecessary. Your ideas were mostly already floated 10 years ago, were tried, and failed, insofar as JTA continues to have the lowest ridership of any major city.

The reason for this, which you aren't really addressing, is the substandard service. You don't believe that rude drivers, late buses, no shelters, confusing signage, lack of intermodal transit options (e.g., rail), and a route structure designed so that it regularly takes several hours to go a few miles have anything at all to do with the current lack of ridership?

Until all of that is fixed, you can do all the advertising you want to other demographics, e.g. people who would be discretionary riders because they have alternatives, and it won't matter. They'll try it once or twice, see how badly it sucks, and that will be that. Worse, it will be that much harder to get those people back next time.

Actual, real, systemic changes are needed at JTA. Not an expensive ad campaign when they already can't afford shelters.

Thinking like that is exactly why JTA is what it is today. And most of your ideas were already tried. If you actually ride JTA, I'm surprised you haven't noticed it already uses electronic cards and readers, monthly passes, and most of the rest of what you've suggested. You're not going to increase ridership unless the problems are fixed. Advertising won't help. People may buy a bad product once or twice, but then they learn.    

[Live_Oak]

and a route structure designed so that it regularly takes several hours to go a few miles

   

Is this true? Do you have an example of this?  Or is this merely hyperbole?

[ChriswUfGator]

and a route structure designed so that it regularly takes several hours to go a few miles

Is this true? Do you have an example of this?  Or is this merely hyperbole?

Oh I think I'll let Stephen take this one, he has examples galore, that are much more entertaining than me.

But it's definitely not hyperbole. It takes the wonderful lady who cleans my place 2 hrs to get from Springfield to Riverside.

[Bativac]

and a route structure designed so that it regularly takes several hours to go a few miles

   

Is this true? Do you have an example of this?  Or is this merely hyperbole?

He is dead on with this. I took the bus to work (granted - -this was a few years ago) and to get 10 miles took me 2 and a half hours. Driving took maybe 30 minutes.

Bus is due at 12:14 at Empire Point but to make sure you don't miss it, 'cause sometimes it's early, get out there at noon. Drive to the downtown central hub. Arrive at 12:45 (give or take). Wait 45 minutes for the next bus out to Imeson Park. Approximately 1 hour later, assuming the driver didn't miss a turn (as happened on several occasions), pull into Imeson Park at 2:30. It was usually right on time because my shift started at 2:30 and I had to run inside to make sure I wasn't late.

Nobody is going to use the bus regardless of how much advertising they do, unless they somehow cut down on the time it takes to get anywhere. In a city this big, maybe we need smaller hubs in different areas. Maybe some kind of rail that goes down a few main "spokes" with buses supplementing the rail.

The rude drivers don't help but the trip time is the big issue.

[Singejoufflue]

I like analogies, so here's one.  When we got the Jags in 95, the whole town was a buzz.  They had a couple of good/great seasons out of the gate, but once they started floundering support flagged as well.  Fairweather fans, to be sure.  Yet, there have been a core group of diehard fans who have bought season tickets every year, tailgate weekly, buy teal cars, get their kids teal braces, name their dogs Jackson and De Ville, you name it.  We didn't say those people were shilling for the Jags.  They were supporting what they have.  Participating.  Showing interest.  They knew salary caps kept the depth pretty paltry and there were some really ugly years(03, 08, anyone remember those?), but they liked having an NFL team here.  Sadly, that small minority of fans wasn't deep enough.  The city almost lost the team.  But wait.  Now, there is a MAJOR MARKETING push to get fans interested.  Get involved the message says.  Support the team even though they have sucked for a while.  We don't want to lose out on this. Come watch the hometown team.  Keeping the Jags is great for the City. Hey everybody, they have a winning record! We're team teal, or some such. 

...the community has to support the decision.  Turning around an organization as large and bumbling as JTA is will be a long-term process. If you don't get the population at large behind this issue it stops before it is started. We wind up with the skyway.  A portion of the failure of transit in Jax rests with the community that has elected leadership who encourage (or at least don't discourage) sprawl.  The current transit system is run by an agency whose focus is NOT on transit but on roads (one only need look at the first page of the 2007/08 Annual Report to see that).  The City, a revamped transit agency, this board, will never tackle 50 years of issues in a manner as to resolve them all in one fell swoop without completely up-ending a system that is a necessity for a small portion of the city.  So, the point of my argument will always be: What can we do tomorrow to get people on the system tomorrow?

[ChriswUfGator]

Unfortunately, Singe.

This will not be enough.

The problem is that the product is subpar.

There just isnt enough marketing in the world that will convince people that dog crap can be used as rug shampoo.

The problem with this kind of thinking is that it relies on people to 'show support' for a system before the system should improve enought to be useful to the municipality that it is supposed to serve, and this is exactly the opposite of what needs to happen.

The JTA needs to be asking the people of Jacksonville why it is useless to them, and then make the necessary changes to give it some justification for existing.

I don't think you really understand the scale of the money and the failure.

If the total ridership is about 10 thousand people.  If you purchased 10 thousand electric cars  for 10k each and gave each of those people who use JTA regularly, that would be 100mil.

That is two of the overpasses built for regular cars.

But the JTA is not asking the people of Jacksonville anything.

They have refused to do so, and this site is the only marketplace of ideas for the cities transit that is freely open and available to the public.

It will remain that way until there is a new communications director for the agency.

+1

Enough attempts to polish a turd already. All it does is ruin the polishing rag, and you still have a turd.

No amount of advertising is going to achieve any meaningful levels of ridership until the system is fixed.

Period.

Not sure why people want to argue that? Sure you can attract a few riders with ads, who will ride it once or twice, and realize how badly it sucks, and that will be the end of that. Until it's functional there's just no point.

Everyone already knows what JTA is and what it does. That's not why nobody rides it.

[CS Foltz]

Kids.........maybe we are just trying to get things changed from the wrong end! Maybe we should be raising hell with FDOT and the subsystem we have there in town? I mean, this is Florida and I think we deserve something that is a flippin lot better than what we have.........wtf.......what does JTA stand for? How about Just Tiptoeing Around?