Outrageous JTA Transit Sites Selected

[Steve]

Can anyone tell me why the T-U or local news stations aren't covering this issue?  Is there anything a private citizen can do to get more coverage?  If the BRT system does happen, it will effect everyone in Jacksonville for many, many years.

Well, we've met with the Times-Union on a couple of occasions, and they are well aware of the issue.  Based on the responses that myself and others have received, I think one of two things is going on.

1. They don't care at all.
2. They are planning a whole bunch of stuff around this (both on the new side and the editorial side), and are waiting to get all of the resources together.

I sure hope it's number 2, but when it comes to this plan, nothing would surprise me at this point.

[Lunican]

Well, this is the newspaper that congratulated the city on the "complete motorization" of Jacksonville when the last trolley was ripped up to be replaced with buses.

There was a big celebration and everyone was so proud of themselves.

[Ocklawaha]

Transit Oriented Development Comrades? Well it WOULD make one wonder... Let's hope the City Council thinks so too...


JTA has taken a page from Stalins book "How to build Transit and Force The People To Love You!" Transit Oriented Development was done under Stalin, by selection of a parcel of land, pointing in that direction and saying, "THAT IS A TOD!" and POOF! It was... The State owned it, the state developed it, and the state staffed and somewhat stocked it... The STATE...THE STATE... THE STATE!


Moscow Metro Stations, the most beautiful that surrendering your rights can buy!

Hardly how it is done in the free market of the West... Yet JTA has this idea, that they can buy an old plaza like Arlington, or Cedar Hills, then dictate..."POOF!" Instant TOD! This is simply WRONG! In the miltary one of the first things you learn is to "orient yourself" left, forward, reverse, right, etc... JTA has re-written those rules, now if your transit faces left, and your front door faces right...you are still a transit ORIENTED development. Does your building face a parking lot in the middle of the street? Don't worry, your taxes will soar with your new trumped up valuation at being named Transit ORIENTED. Folks, when one looks into a mirror, you are ORIENTED toward the mirror... Show the mirror your back side and according to JTA you are STILL oriented toward that mirror. Perhaps that is the trouble, JTA has spoken from the wrong end for so long, they don't know the back side from the front?

Good Transit Oriented Development is not a building near transit...It is a building that becomes PART of the transit experience, like walking down the stairs and into the door of a shop, or into a plaza of 100's of shops. The Transit stop itself becomes part of the destination itself, if not THE destination. It's not a Transit Stop at Gateway or the Avenues, but a stop that INCLUDES Gateway or the Avenues. THAT IS A TOD, or Rail Oriented Development or ROD. Calling the new dull building by Rosa Parks a TOD, when it faces an internal parking lot and has NOTHING for the transit rider to relate to, is the same as going to a car wash and calling yourself a Chevy!


Nice store in Moscow, just like JTA want's us to have, JTA Transit Oriented Development...By Supreme Decree!

So we have three things here to study. The American Way, which almost always depends on fixed guideway transit, Trolleys, Interurbans, LRT, Skyway and Commuter Rail. Only 7% ANYWHERE have anything to do with BRT or buses, and even these are challenged in Transit Journals. So with BRT, if we build it, THEY WON'T COME! Item two, is our Skyway, Rail, streetcars or similar plans, where Cities have enjoyed over $1,200 dollars in BOOMING DEVELOPMENT for every dollar invested, much of this in true TOD/ROD development. Lastly, there is Comrade Stalin and JTA, We'll just buy the land, call everything within a few blocks a BRT-TOD and hope the Federal Transit Administration ever comes snooping around... HEY? Why Not? It worked for Uncle Joe Stalin!

Ocklawaha

[Bostech]

Well looks nice,big enough for future expansion for alien landing spots too.
Is there a stop for future courthouse?

[hanjin1]

I doubt we would need one for the "future" courthouse, since we will probably never get one. You know they might as well use that empty land and build a transit station there. At least we can get the homeless to congregate away from Hemming Plaza

[avonjax]

I'm not even bothered by the billion dollar price tag. Although from all the fine information that has been  provided by the sensible people who post here, seems to support a much better mass transit system can be built for less.
I'm more concerned about a system that will be useful for "everyone," not just those who have no choice but to use public transportation.
If the right system is implemented now, I think more people will make mass transit a first choice, especially during the work week.
But again as I have said here before, I don't believe people with a choice will park their car to ride a bus.

[Westsider]

Has anyone contacted city council members, churches, businesess for the effected areas of land being aquired by JTA?  Has anyone looked at how many business/churches/community centers will be closed or land lost when this whole system is completed?  What if a group of citizens/businesses/organizations purchased a 1/2 page or full page ad in the T-U letting the public know how our tax dollars are buying up all this land, how it will effect the economy in each area, tax base, employment, traffic etc.   List the email addresses, phone numbers of people to contact to voice their opinions.   I haven't lost faith in the Jacksonville citizens.  I truly feel if all the information was shown the public outcry to the COJ/JTA would be over whelming. Have any of the area TV stations shown any interest?

Westsider

[Ocklawaha]

I contend it is time for our own 501-C-3 Corporation.

An action company of like minded individuals that can promote and build rail at the very least the downtown "Streetcar/Museum" aspect of it.

A group that does more then collect old stories and photos

A bunch of activists that can present alternative plans, models, drawings at important meetings

A legal citizen built cartel beyond reproach with a true NOT FOR PROFIT status

(No! Not for profit, does NOT mean you can't be paid for services rendered or time invested, but we could talk about that aspect and which way we want it to go...)

A herd doesn't have a leader, but a well organized mob DOES, add the magic word INC. to the end and we'll get the attention to support other worthy causes

It's time for a change of heart here, we need to incorporate, and seek our 501-C-3 status with the IRS. I have already done this a couple of times, and am willing to lead the civilian charge...Any legal eagles and number crunchers want to join me??? OUR CITY NEEDS YOU!!!

Ocklawaha

For information on another 501-C-3 see:
http://www.geocities.com/fcphs/
Your welcome to join us here too!

[rwolfe618]

When I first heard about the idea of a rapid transit system in Jacksonville, I thought, "FINALLY!" And then I found out they were referring to a bus rapid transit system, and my whole attitude changed.

We had the project manager for the BRT and the director of external affairs for JTA speak at a neighborhood meeting Monday night. We're near the proposed San Juan location, and they told us that our property values would increase after the terminal was built because profitable companies are very eager to locate near public transit terminals. But seriously, how much land is going to be left for any company to move in after they take up the only available blocks in the area with the terminal? AND, it really doesn't seem like they're thinking about what the locations will be like in 20 to 25 years when the project is supposedly going to be complete.

Commuter rail would make so much more sense, and it would be completed in a much shorter timeline based on purchasing the parallel tracks throughout the city from CSX. Their reasoning for not looking into this is supposedly due to the two Asian shipping companies building terminals at JaxPort. There's going to be a lot more rail traffic going out of Jacksonville in the next (Mitsui and Hanjin) few years. But let's face it, there won't be nearly as much rail traffic as there will be street traffic between the increased number of truckers leaving the port and the ever-increasing Jacksonville population. Rail is definitely the lesser of the two evils.

Does anyone know if there is an active petition going around against the BRT system? I know quite a few people who would be interested in signing it, including myself.

[thelakelander]

When I first heard about the idea of a rapid transit system in Jacksonville, I thought, "FINALLY!" And then I found out they were referring to a bus rapid transit system, and my whole attitude changed.

We had the project manager for the BRT and the director of external affairs for JTA speak at a neighborhood meeting Monday night. We're near the proposed San Juan location, and they told us that our property values would increase after the terminal was built because profitable companies are very eager to locate near public transit terminals.

They are, just not at bus stops.

AND, it really doesn't seem like they're thinking about what the locations will be like in 20 to 25 years when the project is supposedly going to be complete.

That's definately another fatal flaw of this system.   Its being sold as a substitute for rail, yet it does not even serve the densest urban neighborhoods it goes through.

Commuter rail would make so much more sense, and it would be completed in a much shorter timeline based on purchasing the parallel tracks throughout the city from CSX. Their reasoning for not looking into this is supposedly due to the two Asian shipping companies building terminals at JaxPort. There's going to be a lot more rail traffic going out of Jacksonville in the next (Mitsui and Hanjin) few years.

Is that the new line these days?  The S-Line has nothing to do with CSX or the port because its owned by the city and there are no tracks on it.  The CSX A (down Roosevelt) will see a reduction in freight traffic due to the Orlando commuter rail deal.  Those alone combine for over 20 miles of rail right-of-way from Orange Park to downtown and the Northside that have very little to do with the port.  Combined, they also eliminate the need for two poorly concieved legs of BRT....the North and SW corridors.  Also, is track capacity is an issue, its still cheaper to build a parallel line of major routes (like the FEC line), then it is to take people's homes and businesses to build a bus super highway all over town.

Rail is definitely the lesser of the two evils.

In this case, like most, rail is a positive if we have to dibble and dabble with mass transit.

Does anyone know if there is an active petition going around against the BRT system? I know quite a few people who would be interested in signing it, including myself.

Right now there's not one, but we definately need to start one up.

[Ocklawaha]

When I first heard about the idea of a rapid transit system in Jacksonville, I thought, "FINALLY!" And then I found out they were referring to a bus rapid transit system, and my whole attitude changed.

We had the project manager for the BRT and the director of external affairs for JTA speak at a neighborhood meeting Monday night. We're near the proposed San Juan location, and they told us that our property values would increase after the terminal was built because profitable companies are very eager to locate near public transit terminals.

They are, just not at bus stops.

   University of Michigan (Pretty close to Detroit) Planning Handbook for BRT:
This does not mean that Bus Rapid Transit is equal to rail transit as an economic development tool.  Economic development is a broad term that has been defined as ?progress towards a community?s economic goals, including increased productivity, employment, business activity, investment and redevelopment? (Litman 2004).  For example, the General Accounting Office has noted that there are at least two possible economic development advantages of light rail over BRT.  First, light rail allows a city to project an image of itself as a world class city, thereby attracting investment based on the city?s prestige.  Second, according to the GAO, light rail, unlike BRT, defines corridors of development, thus spurring â€" or at least attracting â€" new development of real estate in those areas.  (GAO 2001: 31). 

In fact, it may be true that rail transit is, overall, a better economic development tool.  Although Bus Rapid Transit is able to overcome some of the image problems suffered by standard bus transit, it is unlikely to ever be fully as prestigious as rail transit.  Bus Rapid Transit may also not have the same congestion or pollution reduction effects as rail transit.  These are extremely important factors that communities should consider as they decide what form of mass transit is right for them, and that seem to weigh in on the side of rail transit.

Quote
AND, it really doesn't seem like they're thinking about what the locations will be like in 20 to 25 years when the project is supposedly going to be complete.

That's definately another fatal flaw of this system.   Its being sold as a substitute for rail, yet it does not even serve the densest urban neighborhoods it goes through.

QuoteTCRP Report 102, Transit-Oriented Development in the United States: Experiences, Challenges, and Prospects, synthesizes and analyzes the results of an extensive survey on TOD activity. The 145 agencies responding to the survey identified TOD projects and the type of associated transit service, with just under eight percent identified as associated with bus service of any kind. The report’s Los Angeles area case study includes a brief discussion of TOD and BRT, and reports that in Los Angeles no TOD projects had broken ground or were in the planning stages as of the time the survey was completed.

Commuter rail would make so much more sense, and it would be completed in a much shorter timeline based on purchasing the parallel tracks throughout the city from CSX. Their reasoning for not looking into this is supposedly due to the two Asian shipping companies building terminals at JaxPort. There's going to be a lot more rail traffic going out of Jacksonville in the next (Mitsui and Hanjin) few years.

Is that the new line these days?  The S-Line has nothing to do with CSX or the port because its owned by the city and there are no tracks on it.  The CSX A (down Roosevelt) will see a reduction in freight traffic due to the Orlando commuter rail deal.  Those alone combine for over 20 miles of rail right-of-way from Orange Park to downtown and the Northside that have very little to do with the port.  Combined, they also eliminate the need for two poorly concieved legs of BRT....the North and SW corridors.  Also, is track capacity is an issue, its still cheaper to build a parallel line of major routes (like the FEC line), then it is to take people's homes and businesses to build a bus super highway all over town.

Check this out, this is the ONLY area where any expansion would be needed, and even that is remote as we are only talking about 1 mile or so. The line over the Trout River (in red). Otherwise, the other two red segments are, Union Station, which OF COURSE would need some track, and the FEC RofW which would also need an extra track. As for the PORT LINE and JTA? Why is it our "Transportation Authority" can't read a map?

Quote
Rail is definitely the lesser of the two evils.

In this case, like most, rail is a positive if we have to dibble and dabble with mass transit.

From "Evergreen Politics" BRT in Seattle:

But, taking that anti light rail perspective misses the long-term benefit of creating a regional rail system.  Comparing the benefits of BRT and light rail is comparing apples and oranges.  Building a light rail system through the center of Seattle that will eventually connect with other parts of the metro area is a critical long- term investment.  I would venture to say that it is more than a shame that most of the funding for this long-term investment comes for the regional tax base (Sound Transit RTA district) and not from the state and federal government.  However, that does not mean that we should abandon our long-term plans for rail.  Rail offers the very best system to create a rapid transit system.

Quote
Does anyone know if there is an active petition going around against the BRT system? I know quite a few people who would be interested in signing it, including myself.

Right now there's not one, but we definately need to start one up.

From the Kansas City Star, RE: City Council OVERTURNS Light Rail Vote!
Thursday was the deadline for the council to get the petition initiative, organized in part by business tycoon James Nutter Sr., on the ballot.

“We got pushed into a corner by the Nutter proposal after we got pushed in another corner by the Chastain proposal,” Funkhouser said.

One council member said the decision to repeal a voter-approved plan was “gut-wrenching.” The three dissenters were Beth Gottstein, John Sharp and Cathy Jolly.

Gottstein said the council’s repeal will “kill momentum” in favor of light rail because voters will be angry at their will being overturned.

While they were divided on the repeal and when to hold the next light-rail election, council members emphasized that light rail in Kansas City is a matter of when, not if.

“Our community is ready for light rail,” Councilwoman Jan Marcason said.

Chastain had hoped to persuade council members not to repeal his plan. Instead, he wanted to have revisions made to his plan and presented to voters in February. But he didn’t get a chance to address the council.

After the vote to repeal his plan, Chastain said that 73,998 voters supported his plan last November and that the council was thumbing its collective nose at those voters.

“Today the City Council did a bad thing,” he said. “They slapped democracy in the face.”

PETITION ANYONE? Maybe it's time we start pushing some folks into corners ourselves? I don't mind if I do

Ocklawaha

[second_pancake]

Where's the petition???

[gatorback]

Looks like the JTA is just going to take out whatever it feels is undesirable...sound familiar?

[ricker]

general autonomy? yup sounds familiar.

[Keith-N-Jax]

It's kind of sad, the more I read this stuff, the more I'm convinced that I will be leaving Jacksonville soon. I've been here for a long time and have always loved the city, but more and more lately, I feel the need to move on. I just hope I can sell my house in Springfield when I go, without losing $. 

I am glad to see I am the not the only one feeling this way.