It's a circus @ the council tonight!

[simms3]

The problems behind why Amendment 4 came about are very real... but to me, the key is to refine and actually enforce growth management plans.  Amendment 4 will not solve the problem.  History has shown us, you can buy votes quite easily.  What is needed is good leadership and courage.

Agreed.  The problems are real and there is a way to solve most of the problems  No system is perfect, but Amendment 4 will most undoubtedly create MORE problems than what we already face.  I would rather have the kind of growth we have been seeing for the last 30 years than no growth because decisions cannot possibly ever be made when thousands or millions of people are involved.  Heck, in my lab at school there are 24 students and for the last lab we thought about making 1 big group of the whole class.  It was soon agreed upon that 24 people was too large to do a lab in 6 hours because it would take at least an entire hour or two for everyone to figure out and agree on how to go about the lab.

Yea developers can pull some weight that average people can't, but average people, especially in large numbers, can vote in or vote out people in office.  If people were simply more informed about anything, we would not have nearly the same problems with any system as we currently do.  The safeguard is the voting system, though.  Unfortunately, though, we hardly ever get any truly worthy candidates in office as a result, but I blame the people, not the candidate.  Amendment 4 does give more power to the people, which sounds good, but in this particular case I am pretty weary that it would be a pretty bad thing.

[fieldafm]

I believe the 2030 Mobility Plan land use policies have already been approved at the state level.  If so, Amendment 4 may not have as much of a significant impact on Jacksonville.

Meant to ask this the other night... what mechanisms would be in place for the 2030 Mobility Plan to be followed/enforced assuming it gets implemented at the local level?

[tufsu1]

Take my money in the form of taxes,along with thousands of others, who are already getting paycuts and layoffs in the corporate workd, and hike JEA bills by 50% and your economy really goes down the drain.

did you conveniently forget that the millage rate was reduced for something like 18 straight years...or that this millage increase is really revenue neutral as most folks' property values declined?

[uptowngirl]

Take my money in the form of taxes,along with thousands of others, who are already getting paycuts and layoffs in the corporate workd, and hike JEA bills by 50% and your economy really goes down the drain.

did you conveniently forget that the millage rate was reduced for something like 18 straight years...or that this millage increase is really revenue neutral as most folks' property values declined?

Tufsu, I think you miss my point. I do not mind paying more if I am getting my money's worth, right now I am not. My money is being wasted, and when it is running out (such as now) I am being asked for more money, and still no plan to stop the waste.  My response was to your comment about cutting city workers income and that having an impact on the economy. I am hoping that was a joke. I am betting there are more homeowners being asked to pay more to support continued waste and sprawl, than city workers being asked to give up some of the gravy train.

[tufsu1]

one person's wasetful spending is another's necessity.

Example...how many people in Jax. do you think would find spending money to build streetcars in the urban core neighborhoods to be wasteful?

[uptowngirl]

one person's wasetful spending is another's necessity.

Example...how many people in Jax. do you think would find spending money to build streetcars in the urban core neighborhoods to be wasteful?

We have street cars in the Urban Core???!!!! Holy cow I missed that!!!!

[tufsu1]

I think most people would appreciate it if their tax dollars were invested in worthy projects at fair market price( of course, you have to factor in a  fraud premium) instead of staggering government personnel costs. Oh wait a minute, I forgot what a boost to the economy that is since gov. employees are paid from money trees.

do you know what the salary of the average city employee is?

One thing I know is there are far more folks making over $100k at my company than there are at the City (and the City has more employees)

[Miss Fixit]

I think most people would appreciate it if their tax dollars were invested in worthy projects at fair market price( of course, you have to factor in a  fraud premium) instead of staggering government personnel costs. Oh wait a minute, I forgot what a boost to the economy that is since gov. employees are paid from money trees.

do you know what the salary of the average city employee is?

One thing I know is there are far more folks making over $100k at my company than there are at the City (and the City has more employees)

I don't know how much the average city employee makes.  Perhaps you could enlighten us.  I do know that city employees have been better insulated from the recession than those at many other local businesses, where significant salary cuts and reductions in benefits have occurred.  Uptown girl's point is a good one, and I think you are missing it.  The tax increase will likely have a greater negative effect on the economy than an across the board pay cut in government salaries would.  There are a lot of people in Jacksonville who are going to be paying significantly more in property taxes this year because of the millage increase.  Folks with homesteads that are assessed below market value are hit with both higher assessments and higher taxes.  Many of those are elderly people on fixed incomes, or lower income families living in neighborhoods that didn't see huge increases in property values during the last decade.   How are they supposed to pay their bills?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Out of my element here, but trying to make sense of things. 

Who in their right mind would even think that they would vote to cut their own pay when they have the option of raising the millage (which is really low, but that's another conversation)?

There are those of us that have HAD to cut our salaries, because our businesses would go under if we didn't - it wasn't a choice.  But when things are really good, I don't have a problem giving myself a raise or paying myself a bonus (unfortunately neither do they, once again, another conversation).  But IMO I think there should have been a better compromise.  Granted, the millage rate wasn't raised as high as it was originally proposed, but I think they still should have cut pay across the board.  5% was proposed?  Why not a compromise at 2-3%?  I think that would have taken a lot of the pressure off of the members making the vote.

They got one right and screwed the pooch on the other.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Not everyone works for your company tufsu. I am happy for your coworkers. Anyways since most of the people who work DT couldn't find their a$$ with a piece of toilet paper run this city I am inclined to be not in favor of any taxes(etc ) being increased. Also that was a POOR example you used when you talked about money being spent on street cars and etc. I am sure you could go to any city that has alot more going on than we do I find people against LRT, street cars and etc. That's not even the point here. I have been here far to long to watch the inept leadership squander money decades after decades on passive pocket parks, ridiculous studies and trips to other cities to learn absolutely nothing. Its time for a change, then lets talk about taxes.

[tufsu1]

Anyways since most of the people who work DT couldn't find their a$$ with a piece of toilet paper run this city I am inclined to be not in favor of any taxes(etc ) being increased.

and how many of those employees do you know personally?

Fact is what we are mainly talking about is a lack of competent leadership....so maybe the top 3 people in a given department aren't good....but it is hard to apply that to everyone in the organization.

The only reason I mentioned my company is to note that the issues raised about government performance and efficiency also exist in the private sector....but since our salaries (an our internal snafus) aren't public information, we aren't looked at quite the same way.

[Keith-N-Jax]

How many us know any of them personally, what does it matter if I know them or not? I dont know Obama or George Busch either but does that mean I cant form an opinion. Once again Tufsu to the rescue.

[uptowngirl]

Anyways since most of the people who work DT couldn't find their a$$ with a piece of toilet paper run this city I am inclined to be not in favor of any taxes(etc ) being increased.

and how many of those employees do you know personally?

Fact is what we are mainly talking about is a lack of competent leadership....so maybe the top 3 people in a given department aren't good....but it is hard to apply that to everyone in the organization.

The only reason I mentioned my company is to note that the issues raised about government performance and efficiency also exist in the private sector....but since our salaries (an our internal snafus) aren't public information, we aren't looked at quite the same way.

My tax dollars are not directly paying your salary either are they? You do not provide a service to me unless I engage you correct?

[CS Foltz]

uptowngirl.........it IS when tufsu's company is contracted to provide a service! Whatever company he works for is based upon contractual work, which he provides,for a paid service to either the City, State or Federal Government! There are private companies, which could retain his company's and when this happens, whatever report is generated to the payer, could have ramifications beyond what was consulted on.....side effects and the like! When they provide a contracted service to the City.......thats our money being used.....and example would be the $400K study to decide about moving the Fair to the equestrian center!

[Keith-N-Jax]

Now it all makes sense! I see said the blind man.