FDOT considering commuter rail along the FEC

[thelakelander]

Also keep in mind that the South Florida proposal covers three counties. Also, are those other cities proposing BRT to parallel their proposed rail or will they connect rail to destinations not adjacent to tracks?

in at least one case (Tampa) yes...BRT down Nebraska will be implemented next year...and light rail usng either I-275, 30th St, or the CSX tracks could be in place by 2017

Yes, Nebraska Avenue parallels Tampa's desired N/S LRT route along CSX's ROW.  However, these corridors are 1.5 miles apart.  On the other hand, the distance between the FEC and Philips Highway is 500 feet.  Given this, I'd make the claim that Tampa's modes would actually complement each other because the serve completely different urban neighborhoods along most of their corridors.  Nobody is going to walk 1.5 miles to get to LRT.

Tampa's proposed LRT


Tampa's proposed BRT

[thelakelander]

Tufsu1, what is the estimated capital cost of Tampa's Nebraska Avenue BRT line?  Is this being funded locally or through the FTA?  Not that it really matters but it seems like this proposal has moved at a much more rapid pace than plans being discussed locally.

[Ocklawaha]

Tufsu1, what is the estimated capital cost of Tampa's Nebraska Avenue BRT line?  Is this being funded locally or through the FTA?  Not that it really matters but it seems like this proposal has moved at a much more rapid pace than plans being discussed locally.

Lake, in the last 40-50 years Jacksonville has always been slower then the other parts of the state. I really can't put a finger on why except to say perhaps it is more important to look out for the good-ol-boys then ones city. We have had the misfortune of electing "RICK SCOTT" in every election and virtually every city office for decades and you can see where it got us. When I first came to JAX (too small to remember anything else) my father honestly thought WE would be about where Miami, Orlando or Tampa are today. While dad bordered on genius he couldn't have seen the banditry that would sack this city and land us in the backwater traditionally reserved for Mobile, Biloxi, and Selma. He found out pretty fast that his civil rights view point was going to be a tough sell here and THAT as a Navy Exchange commander. If Walt Disney were alive today and hung tight on putting his world in Jacksonville, I predict that we'd still be studying the proposal.

Back when I was a city councilman in a tiny prairie town in the great state of Oklahoma I discovered that our town fathers had paved every municipal road in the town limits back in the depression era to avoid the cost of constant grading... Jacksonville did this too, in 1985! "Go figure," as the Okies would say. Stillwater HOME OF OKLAHOMA STATE UNIVERSITY (THE university of Oklahoma!) has better mass transit then we do and it's population is 40,000 or about the same as Titusville.

So what is it? What is that odd factor that seems to have landed Jacksonville on stupid for so many years? God knows I love this city but maybe it's for the same reasons I love the Confederacy and the history of Japan from 1938-1945.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Tufsu1, what is the estimated capital cost of Tampa's Nebraska Avenue BRT line?  Is this being funded locally or through the FTA?  Not that it really matters but it seems like this proposal has moved at a much more rapid pace than plans being discussed locally.

I have the info. and will look it up on Monday ($42 million comes to mind)....from what I understand, HART is funding the north-south BRT with through issuance of bonds...but is hoping to get FTA $ for the east-west line (along Hillsborough Ave).

btw...the rail line alignment is not set yet (sadly)...most likely it will follow the CSX tracks or 30th St...but if it goes along I-275, it will be much closer to the Nebraska BRT line

[thelakelander]

It may be an option, but I suspect its a distant 3rd with BRT roughly a block away.  If they actually go with I-275, they'll be in the same situation we face with Philips Highway and will continue to take a back seat to Orlando.  They've been set on that CSX corridor for years.  My guess is I-275 and 30th Street are being considered in the event that CSX gives them the middle finger.

[tufsu1]

they are studying each because that is what is required in the Federal Alternatives Analysis Study...but for some reason, HART has delayed decision on the preferred alignment for that corridor (as well as the west line to the Airport).

[Ocklawaha]

Tufsu1, what is the estimated capital cost of Tampa's Nebraska Avenue BRT line?  Is this being funded locally or through the FTA?  Not that it really matters but it seems like this proposal has moved at a much more rapid pace than plans being discussed locally.

($42 million comes to mind)....from what I understand, HART is funding the north-south BRT with through issuance of bonds...but is hoping to get FTA $ for the east-west line (along Hillsborough Ave).

btw...the rail line alignment is not set yet (sadly)...most likely it will follow the CSX tracks or 30th St...but if it goes along I-275, it will be much closer to the Nebraska BRT line

This BRT system is being developed on the poison ground where CUTR has laced the waters with such golden quips as "BRT actually has a higher capacity then rail based on 2 second headways..." (2 seconds? Man those idiots must bail off those buses pretty damn fast!) Not to mention sucking off the tit of the taxpayers while convincing Tallahassee that all highways are good and all rail is bad. PLEASE, Who lives on I-275? While Tampa moves out into the cesspool of all CUTR ideas, the old Tampa Northern - nee CSX - nee Seaboard Coast Line - nee Seaboard Airline Railroad rots away, hacked into two pieces in a splendid little act of railroad rationalization.

The goal of such rationalization to may have been keep as much of freight business online as possible while severing any link that might be of some use for future passengers. Intentional or not the remaining convoluted freight lines prove it was largely achieved throughout the state. Freight doesn't complain about round-about routes or poorly maintained SLOW track.

Had we not been so damn stupid Florida would have bought up some 500 miles or so of now vanished railroads and rail banked them for future use. That Tampa Northern line? The map of the proposed light rail line shows the new system built right alongside the old mainline all the way to station 11 where the LRT jogs east and the TN continues north. The sad part of this is there is a plan for standard commuter rail (NOT light-rail) from Tampa Union Station to Lakeland, Bradenton and on the TN to Brooksville. The track survives to a point about half way between Brooksville and Inverness and from there to just south of Dunnellon they allowed the CSX to abandon the line. Beyond Dunnellon this track passes through Rainbow Springs - Williston - Archer - Alachua - Starke - Baldwin - Jacksonville...  Interesting? Well before the network was butchered there was a line from Archer to Gainesville directly, and another ran from Gainesville to Alachua and north through Worthington Springs - Lake Butler - Raiford - Baldwin - Jacksonville of which only the Gainesville - Alachua segment still exist. So rather then a lesson in Florida geography, just think of a "West Coast Route" from Jacksonville to Tampa, more or less along the line of a now dead turnpike all for the price of some track work and replacing some 40 miles m/l of track on pre-existing roadbed. Betcha CUTR would have all kinds of reasons why that would be a bad investment and I bet Rick Scott would agree!

OCKLAWAHA

[ricker]

with all due respect, 'lakelander'_ "Nobody is going to walk 1.5 miles to access LRT!?''
that's not encouraging.
I understand this nation is a fat one and in many ways too lazy and spoiled now for years. check that-make it  generations.
largely unappreciative, having taken for granted the related and perceived freedoms associated with previously inexpensive fuels etc and placing our glutted roads in need of mass diets, so as to make room for safe walking within our 'hoods and entire communities.

However, given the current available info, most of us will be forced to walk a much greater distance to reach the few stations proposed.

How can I - an average citizen - find the pertinent details related to the JTA's plans for the future of Shirley Avenue at Jersey Street along Blanding, north of SanJuanAve?

I am an advocate for smart planning and intelligent cohesive design implentation for such an earthshaking endeavor, but remain highly concerned that we - the general public - will continue to see the nasty waste of earnings and taxes in favor of the "founders"' descendants' ever growing egos.

[thelakelander]

^Your transit system will fail if most people are forced to walk 1.5 miles in the Florida sun or rain  to use it.  The key is to have a complementing local bus system that connects various destinations and neighborhoods with your rail spine.

[tufsu1]

whether rail or bus, the normal walkable stop distance is 1/4 to 1/3 of a mile...and some places, like Gainesville, are really stressing a 1/8 mile radius

[tufsu1]

ok...looked it up...Hillsborough County Commission authorized $40 million in bonds for the north-south BRT line, several park & ride stations, transit signal priority installation in key places throughout the county, and prelim. design of the east-west line.

based on this my guess is that approx. $25 million of the bonds are being used for the north-south line (not sure if HART has other revenue sources for the project).  

[CS Foltz]

So they basically taxed themselves to do this? Makes me wonder why.............never mind I know why! JTA is a bunch of bovines! Too used to feeding at the Federal trough and have no plan b or other options!

[JeffreyS]

So they basically taxed themselves to do this? Makes me wonder why.............never mind I know why! JTA is a bunch of bovines! Too used to feeding at the Federal trough and have no plan b or other options!

DING DING DING we have a winner cue the confetti.

[ricker]

yes yes that's IT! it IS a spine. Our rail lines aren't reminders of days gone by- they ARE our backbone!

[Ocklawaha]

Exactly! That JTA keeps bringing up buses as the "same thing only cheaper" reminds me of a famous clown act...

DANCE OF THE CUCKOOS is the name of the piece!
http://www.youtube.com/v/wNnK14TkkWY?fs=1&hl=en_US&rel=0&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1

Actually the BRT and EXPRESS COACH network could easily be what the railroad would term as "secondaries."
While Streetcar and Skyway would be "primaries," Commuter Rail is "The Spine Line". Silly as it seems this is really quite important, like mission statements the hierarchy should dictate where the money flows most freely, where the biggest and best will operate, as well as the fast and the specialized. Neighborhood circulators and regular transit buses function much like the terminal companies of old tying everything together like strings in a tennis racket. NETWORK! Plan to work and work the plan, and meanwhile quit the danged dancing, deceit and dumbness.

This system of things is what LAKE, TUFSU, and Myself would call the "Thick lines and thin lines..."

OCKLAWAHA