JTA To Move Forward with Philips Highway BRT Plan

[Ocklawaha]

I actually agree with a good portion of your post.  However, I don't agree with the notion of skyway vs bus or bus vs commuter  rail, streetcar or whatever mode selected to pick on for the hour.  I believe the entire system needs to be re-evaluated and modified.   I would bet the house and kids that a better and more reliable transit system (that includes buses and the skyway) could be run with the current amount of funds taken in.

Right! The trouble is if you build BRT under the SKYWAY you have set yourself up for failure, a failure that someday down the road, somebody is going to demand an accounting for. If on the other hand you did minor extensions to the Skyway to get it into residential-retail-hospital territories and fed those endpoints with BRT and/or Streetcar and bus, as well as BRT, you'd be explaining why a dead monorail suddenly skyrocketed to the top of small transit systems in performance, it's your choice JTA.

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Gentlemen...............$kyway is just one slice of an intermodal transportation system........or should be! BRT will be mirroring $kyway and seems to me, to be pretty silly since both systems will suffer! Not to mention, that JTA has said........got no money for bus shelters! $4 Million Dollars would go far to get shelters into place where there are none, but BRT will get $24 Thousand Dollar shelters and a total of 12 (?) There are other issue's with the current JTA bus system...........drivers, lack of shelters and management that is lost! I am not really sure that Phillips is best served by a BRT system because of a lack of riders! Not alot of housing along Phillips and I kinda fail to see just how this will enhance the "Bus experience" in BRT form?

[Ocklawaha]

August 23, 2010
BRT Southeast Corridor Public Meeting
Time: 4:00 PM - 7:00 PM
Location: Best Western-Southpoint

This thread was split with a couple of posts moving to the new "ATTEND JTA's Plan To KILL RAIL, 4-7 MON."

DON'T MISS THIS SHOWDOWN!


OCKLAWAHA

[dlemore]

If the skyway is not a money maker and is taking away funding from a better transportation system, then why not shut the cash cow down. Maybe someday the skyway will be extended(less concrete I hope, less of a eye sore) and become part of a good maglev monorail system to all points of jacksonville. I can't think of a better way to start filling the void and replacing some of the existing JTA employees with a cost effective driverless system, that could eventually provide a low cost transportation system for that portion that utilize the system to get from point A to Point B without the need for fossil fuel.

[Ocklawaha]

If the skyway is not a money maker and is taking away funding from a better transportation system, then why not shut the cash cow down. Maybe someday the skyway will be extended(less concrete I hope, less of a eye sore) and become part of a good maglev monorail system to all points of jacksonville. I can't think of a better way to start filling the void and replacing some of the existing JTA employees with a cost effective driverless system, that could eventually provide a low cost transportation system for that portion that utilize the system to get from point A to Point B without the need for fossil fuel.

"Maglev" and "low cost transportation system," is an oxymoron. We jumped the gun in suddenly converting our Skyway into a "FUTURISTIC MONORAIL" rather then a sensible its-worked-for-100-years-so-why-not-use-it regular rail system which COULD HAVE been done for a fraction of the cost. At the same time as the Skyway was starting to fly, San Diego created the first leg of a regional LRT system "The Tijuana Trolley", they spent $85 Million for 15 miles, including track, wire, equipment, stations, etc... We spent $200 Million for 2.4 miles!

Driverless (fyi train operators are known as "DRIVERS" outside of North America where they are Engineers) operation isn't really driverless. Fact is someone is doing the driving someplace, or at the very least they have their hand over a kill switch while watching a video monitor. It doesn't get more advanced then our Skyway when it comes to operations. The whole railroad with 4 lines (including the carbarn line) is operated by over 120 video monitors and 2 men at the controlling computer keyboards. The Skyway cars can also be operated by a "Pilot" (monorail terms are different, a Pilot operates the train, though I'd still prefer the term Motorman since the cars are electric) simply by unlocking a hidden control panel in the front of either car.

The good news is, with our $200 Million we have FINISHED all of the infrastructure for a much larger system. 5 miles? 20 miles? 200 miles? We don't need a single thing now but track and track is about $15-35 Million per mile depending on the vendor and style of construction.

Shut it down? That is a CERTAIN way to kill not only the Skyway, but any other fixed mass transit system in this city forever.


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock..."Maglev" is not something Jacksonville is ready for yet! Money is the biggest obstacle, for we can't even fund 1700 shelters without .....advertising or sponsorship! Maybe that $4 Million could be used on the $kyway instead of BRT that is not needed? I just have to love the concept that JTA, or their consultants, seem to think "Build it and they will ride"! Granted,  infill is started by having a transit system and then infill starting to take place but BRT is not the answer,especially on Phillips! That leg is a stand alone and will  only lose money due to low ridership which means we, the taxpayers, will be paying even more than the allready inflated subsidy we provide! But hay......if they sell advertising, some more shelters might be installed! Philips Highway has signs on the side of the road to indicate "Bus stop" but funny as it seems........no shelters with roofs! Something is wrong with this picture!

[Ocklawaha]

DIRECTIONS OF THE FUTURE IN PHOTOS OF COURSE!

NORTH CAROLINA Raleigh-Charlotte corridor trains


PORTLAND, OREGON One sign says it all


MEDELLIN, COLOMBIA This is the 3Rd what?


LITTLE ROCK, ARKANSAS Boom town on the Arkansas River


VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLOMBIA The fully automated Sky-Train


MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE Main street USA


SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA The "original" new trolley system


PANAMA CITY, PANAMA This one even has a glass dome car


ATLANTA, GEORGIA, The New South's first heavy rail system


CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA, When the corridor and LRT are established you build a streetcar line


HABANA, CUBA, Interurban service on the Hershey Railway

SAN JOSE, CALIFORNIA, Cal-Train quickly converted the highway culture

JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA, Past-Present-Future?


“Losers visualize the penalties of failure. Winners visualize the rewards of success.”

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock..............we are just getting JTA and the City to work together.......kinda.......sorta! Until they see the light we can count on just what we are getting...............BRT with Federal Funds! We can't afford anything else I would guess!

[dlemore]

 a surcharge

If the skyway is not a money maker and is taking away funding from a better transportation system, then why not shut the cash cow down. Maybe someday the skyway will be extended(less concrete I hope, less of a eye sore) and become part of a good maglev monorail system to all points of jacksonville. I can't think of a better way to start filling the void and replacing some of the existing JTA employees with a cost effective driverless system, that could eventually provide a low cost transportation system for that portion that utilize the system to get from point A to Point B without the need for fossil fuel.

"Maglev" and "low cost transportation system," is an oxymoron. We jumped the gun in suddenly converting our Skyway into a "FUTURISTIC MONORAIL" rather then a sensible its-worked-for-100-years-so-why-not-use-it regular rail system which COULD HAVE been done for a fraction of the cost. At the same time as the Skyway was starting to fly, San Diego created the first leg of a regional LRT system "The Tijuana Trolley", they spent $85 Million for 15 miles, including track, wire, equipment, stations, etc... We spent $200 Million for 2.4 miles!

Driverless (fyi train operators are known as "DRIVERS" outside of North America where they are Engineers) operation isn't really driverless. Fact is someone is doing the driving someplace, or at the very least they have their hand over a kill switch while watching a video monitor. It doesn't get more advanced then our Skyway when it comes to operations. The whole railroad with 4 lines (including the carbarn line) is operated by over 120 video monitors and 2 men at the controlling computer keyboards. The Skyway cars can also be operated by a "Pilot" (monorail terms are different, a Pilot operates the train, though I'd still prefer the term Motorman since the cars are electric) simply by unlocking a hidden control panel in the front of either car.

The good news is, with our $200 Million we have FINISHED all of the infrastructure for a much larger system. 5 miles? 20 miles? 200 miles? We don't need a single thing now but track and track is about $15-35 Million per mile depending on the vendor and style of construction.

Shut it down? That is a CERTAIN way to kill not only the Skyway, but any other fixed mass transit system in this city forever.


OCKLAWAHA

OCK..... Would you by any chance know how much FEC, CSX and Southern will be charging for the usege of their tracks? BRT? Just maybe the JTA doesn't want to get locked into a long term contract, at  this time. Paying any money to the railroads for the usege of their tracks will turn out to be nothing more then another cash cow for the JTA. And, I doubt shutting down the skyway would effect further funding for rapid transit, from the boys in Washington. If the JTA needs more money for it's transportation improvements, just add a surcharge of $5.00 to everytime someone wants a football ticket. The city can't seem to make any money from Mr. Weaver or the NFL fiasco....Who owns the stadium, certainly not the NFL or Mr Weaver?

[CS Foltz]

dlemore..........not a question of how much any of the railroads would charge, more of a matter of timing since those are main lines in and out of Jacksonville! Their scheduling is pretty tight to dove tail with other trains moving in and out points south and west and north! Better solution, imo, would be a seperate rail system for just commuter or light rail! But that takes a heap load of money,planning,enviro,row,public input,meetings etc etc! Takes probably 5 to 10 years from the start, before anything starts up and then you have construction time.....anyway you get the idea! We need to start exploring options and thats what this discussion is all about....just trying to get the ball rolling!

[thelakelander]

We should look at every corridor individually.  For example, BRT and streetcars (modern and heritage) can run in the street or public ROW, so you won't be paying the railroads anything.  In addition, the city already owns the S-Line through the Northside.  That's another corridor that ROW costs will be relatively low.  Then you have the CSX A line paralleling Roosevelt.  Since CSX is selling a chunk of this track in Central Florida for Sunrail, it may not be out of the question to do a similar deal for the Jax portion for commuter rail between DT and Clay County.  Last, with the pending FEC/Amtrak deal, expect capital cost to be impacted on that corridor as well since the State/Feds/Amtrak will have to make some of the same upgrades to that line that we would have to make for commuter rail.  We'd probably save some money here to by piggybacking that deal and its improvements.  Imo, considering the Amtrak deal and pending I-95 construction, JTA should be pushing this one forward to the FTA (here you at least combining financial resources together to complete a project) instead of BRT down Philips. 

[CS Foltz]

lake I agree! This is something that both JTA and the City should have been working on together instead of all of the Transportation entities pushing their particular slice of the pie! Upgrades have not been done in a co-ordinated manner with an eye towards possible combinations...........FDOT should have taken the lead since they supposedly are the state authority........but what do I know! I just pay for most of it, good or bad!

[dlemore]

dlemore..........not a question of how much any of the railroads would charge, more of a matter of timing since those are main lines in and out of Jacksonville! Their scheduling is pretty tight to dove tail with other trains moving in and out points south and west and north! Better solution, imo, would be a seperate rail system for just commuter or light rail! But that takes a heap load of money,planning,enviro,row,public input,meetings etc etc! Takes probably 5 to 10 years from the start, before anything starts up and then you have construction time.....anyway you get the idea! We need to start exploring options and thats what this discussion is all about....just trying to get the ball rolling!

How many trains were handled here in Jax in the early 40's? Chicago and Miami seem to be doing just fine with their commuter rail trains....dispatchers of our local railroads are trained to handle mostly  anything!! Most of CSX's traffic is port and intermodal, diverted on trackage mostly outside of the intercity.

[Ocklawaha]

The Keys to a rail transit system... (If you can't read the locomotives lettering it says TALLEYRAND TERMINAL RR)

Create a "Jacksonville Railroad Authority"

Purchase all CSX and NS trackage from Moncrief Yard/Simpson Yard through Springfield, Export Yard, Talleyrand Terminals, Busch, all the way to Yulee or even to the end of the line just inside Georgia. Railroad's are more in the business of hauling the cargo from JAX to LAX then from Blount Island to Moncrief, so they WON'T buck at a reasonable offer.

Dedicate some public monies - perhaps in conjunction with a ALSO NEW "Jacksonville TRANSIT AUTHORITY" to reconstruct the Jacksonville Belt Railroad (AKA: "S" Line) from Union Terminal to Springfield.

Lease all freight trackage and rebuilt portions to a shortline operator/or reciprocal switching BY ALL CARRIERS or a wheelage charge.

IE:
What is Reciprocal Switching
Reciprocal Switching is the industry term for switching cars between a local facility and the nearest interchange with a connecting railway, where the railway performing the reciprocal switch does not participate in the linehaul of a railcar. Customers may be "open" to reciprocal switching, meaning other railways can ship to or from the facility using the prices in the tariff.

What is a Wheelage Charge
To apportion expenses between the 7 Railways (in the JAX area) in a mutually agreeable manner, a method of counting engines and rolling stock in the Terminal Area would be devised. The count, commonly referred to as "Wheelage", applied against joint trackage maintenance and operating costs with each Railway accruing charges based on traffic volume. Each engine and each loaded or empty car would be counted once upon entering and once upon leaving the JAX Transit Zone except for engines and cars in passenger (Amtrak, commuter or LRT) trains which would be given a lesser count of one-half. A second entry and exit by a passenger train would not be counted. Switching and transfer moves, etc. could be excluded from the wheelage count.

The net effect of these two changes would open our port facilities to any and every carrier in the city, creating open access in Jacksonville. Opening our facilities would greatly enhance our position as a world port and create an economic engine of transportation choice among our major industrial players.

Use the income from originating shipments to upgrade track and assist with commuter rail subsidy's.

Folks, we have a situation like no other place in Florida or perhaps the southeast, NOW is the time to act.

FOOTNOTE:
The line in question in much of the discussion is the FLORIDA EAST COAST RAILWAY between St. Augustine and Jacksonville Terminal. Don't make the mistake of assuming that we can schedule around the transfer movements between the terminal interchanges and Bowden Yard (University Blvd.), we can't. These are often random cuts of cars which the railroads are struggling to get off the property ASAP. This is a case where track improvements may be needed and the FEC would have to agree to move transfers around a mass transit schedule, something they seem willing to discuss.


OCKLAWAHA

[spuwho]

Getting back on BRT for a second....

A sniff test tells me that JTA is going to continue to do what they want for Duval County (BRT included) and leave commuter rail to a future regional transit agency. Similar to what the Chicago Transit Authority (CTA) and METRA is the the RTA (Regional Transit Authority).

The CTA still manages and runs all lines (bus and light rail) within the city limits in most cases and has a somewhat minimal relationship with the regional group (they share seats on the RTA board). They still argue about having single passes across all of the RTA services, which CTA usually objects ( I see the same politics with JTA). CTA negotiates their own union agreements separately from RTA entities.

To keep METRA from "over competing", they purposely limit the number of stops METRA trains make within the Chicago city limits to protect CTA buses and trains. The only exception is the Metra Electric.

So JTA continues to own, manage and run a bus based system here in Duval County, while some future taxing entity of which JTA will be a non-majority member will supply the regional rail, with non-Duval bus type of transit.

Personally, I already have a preferred name for the regional rail entity, FIRST COAST TRANSIT or "FCT". The regional authority should be called NEFRTA (North East Florida Regional Transportation Authority)

And while I am on a roll here, turn the Skyway format over to FCT and let them re-purpose it for routes that can't be served by heavy rail. If JTA refuses, then drop and dismantle it and stop the cross subsidy. Let JTA stick to roads and buses, and turn rail transit over to FCT.