ATTEND JTA's Plan To KILL RAIL, 4-7 MON.

[Ocklawaha]

Thanks for the explanation. I too can see someone wanting to salvage the BRT program, but honestly there is really nothing to salvage. No fixed route, no reusable vehicles (assuming that they are at their mandated retirement age), stations, nothing of use except maybe the stop light priorities could be sold to some ambulance company, and the que jumper lanes used for automobiles. Guess they could take down the real time information signs and recycle them...  Hey! Maybe on the Skyway!

Oh well, there just isn't any substance to BRT, and WAY TOO MUCH OF IT on the Skyway.



OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Other than going after federal dollars, this does not have much in common with the skyway.

Since the bus is going to struggle to attract choice riders and won't spur needed economic development, why spend more money on it than necessary? 

Lake, how can you post the comments and then say there are no parallels with the handling of the Skyway?

The Skyway was a pork barrel project to grab federal money.  BRT appears from your own post to be the same.

From my understanding, the skyway was a federal demonstration project that many city's competed for.  BRT is not.

The Skyway was touted as promoting economic development but hasn't.  You just said the same about BRT.

Integrating land use with the skyway's original route would have stimulated economic development.  By not following the original concept of connecting the medical centers and surrounding neighborhoods outside of downtown or building up around it, we have been our own system's worst enemy.  On the flip side, BRT is not a federal demonstration project, the proposed routes are horrible and there's a strong track record of these systems not spurring economic development for obvious reasons.

The Skyway struggles to attract riders.  You just said the same about BRT.

The skyway struggles to attract riders because it isn't integrated with the regular bus system and it wasn't built with major destinations at the end points.  However, if managed properly and integrated into the downtown master plan, the skyway would not have a difficult time attracting choice riders in areas that served them.  BRT, on the other hand, will.

The Skyway lacks destinations people desire.  You, Ock, and others have said the same about BRT on Philips Highway.

The major difference is the skyway's conceptual route actually hit major urban core destinations.  Unfortunately, we're still in the planning mode and the BRT corridors are horrible right from the start, based off faulty information provided by questionable studies conducted a decade ago.

The Skyway lacks connectivity.  You have said there is no connection between BRT and cross connecting rail or bus routes.

Again, going back to the original planning stages, it did not.  However, we built the existing segment in a manner that lacks connectivity and have done everything in our power to limit its effectiveness.  If implemented as originally designed, it would have been (and still could be) a vital part of a regionalwide integrated mass transit system.

The Skyway is a waste of money vs. streetcars.  You just opined that BRT is spending unnecessary money.

Not really, both of these technologies have their pros and cons on the environments they impact.  This community can only blame itself for screwing their potential up.  In this manner, the same could be said for BRT.  Now that we do understand the mistakes we made with the implementation of the skyway, there's no reason we should be repeating them.  This last statement alone should serve as a major difference between the planning of the skyway and BRT.

The Skyway damaged the advent of rail transit in Jax.  Now you say BRT may do the same.

Neither damaged the advent of rail themselves.  The people we've put in charge of rolling these mass transit improvements did by rolling them out in some of the worst ways imaginable.

JTA has mismanaged the Skyway and is lining up to do the same with BRT per you and Ock.

Dunno about you, but I see lots in common.[/b]

It really depends on how you choose to frame the cause and effect of history to determine how common or not they are.  You don't, but I see huge environmental differences in how these two projects have come along throughout their planning and implementation processes.  In the 1970s, we did not have the strong track record of LRT and streetcars spurring transit oriented development throughout urban areas in this country.  The rebirth of the streetcar movement and LRT was seen just as conceptual as the skyway (which again was a demonstration project).  On the other hand, we now have three solid decades of successful implementation of LRT and streetcar, yet instead of going with what works, somehow we've put it in our minds to go with an expensive substandard system that has already proven that it does not spur development.  Imo, this background alone is a major difference between the two.  However, I do agree that a common trait is the agency in charge of rolling them out.  If you can't roll these things out right, they will fail (the streetcar and commuter rail will too, if planned from the same standpoint, btw).

[uptowngirl]

If there is an area on the Southside that needs a shot in the arm, Philips is it.  No bus service is going to do that.  Rail will but you're going to damage those chances by adding transit services that duplicate corridors and compete for riders.  Why blow your wad and opportunity on a substandard alternative that will put our community a couple of more decades behind our progressive peers?   

+1 Lake! 

Apparently Stephen said what I was thinking reading through this. What the hell is every 10-15 mins on Phillips going to do? Get people to Walmart and home quicker? Perhaps pick up some granite counter tops? If they cannot connect this service to timely services running up JTB, Southside, and Baymeadows what is the point? 25MM to get people to Walmart seems a waste. I have been honest in saying I would not rid the bus her in Jacksonville-the drivers, passengers, service, and routes make it not worth it to me. Rail, I would take. Rail is special and unique. Rail will get you where you need to go, but it is also such a treat to ride!

[fsujax]

It seems some of the readers of First Coast News want light rail! scroll down to the comments.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/topstories/news-article.aspx?storyid=164245&catid=3

[tufsu1]

Last but not least, Stephendare exposed the fact that no one really lives or works on Philips.

while I agree that there are very few folks living on Philips, there is actually quite a good bit of employment....especially south of JTB....and I'm not even including the office parks north of Baymeadows between I-95 and Philips.

Overall, I see Philips Highway as a perfect transit corridor....it can be a spine route with local buses circulating to/from the community and the stations.

That said, there is a rail line paralleling the road....use it (instead of BRT) and then the transit could be a bump for needed development and redevelopment in the area.

[JeffreyS]

I want to stop all of this bus pretending to be a train nonsense.  If however the JTA has to do it why not JTB to the beach passing all of the working buildings in south point, St. Luke's hospital, SJTC, UNF, all of the Gate Parkway business parks, Tinseltown, Mayo Clinic to all the people living at the beach.

[tufsu1]

there is nothing wrong with offering enhanced local bus service with limited stops and good headways.....the issue here is that JTA think they need Federal New Starts/Small Starts money to do it...and as such, they have to call it BRT.

The BRT project will have 10-15 minute headways and cost about $25 million...the federal share will be in the $15-$20 million range.....ao here's my question....why would FTA give JTA another $100+ million for commuter rail on the same corridor, especially if it only runs every 30-60 minutes?

[JeffreyS]

Which because of the route chosen will lend itself to killing commuter rail or at least competing with it.

[904Scars]

I haven't really thrown in my 2 cents on this. Unless they seriously throw the entire system back on the drawing board I will NEVER use the bus system here in Jax. Though the new system would be great, as most have stated it only connects to main roads with lack or residence and major business. Where is the plan within the plan for connections? I'd much rather see a rail system developed that stops within designated hot spots in the core area. I'm trying to keep from bias as I understand not everyone lives in the core, however I feel at some point and time most Jacksonvillians could still get great use out of it (sporting events, concerts, weekend bar nights). I'm just rambling I guess but regardless JTA needs to wake up. Spend a couple thousand dollars in plane tickets sending the head-honchos to other Southern cities, pay a guy to smack them around a bit and rub their faces in what Jacksonville COULD be. HAHA

[Doctor_K]

Last but not least, Stephendare exposed the fact that no one really lives or works on Philips.

while I agree that there are very few folks living on Philips, there is actually quite a good bit of employment....especially south of JTB....and I'm not even including the office parks north of Baymeadows between I-95 and Philips.

Overall, I see Philips Highway as a perfect transit corridor....it can be a spine route with local buses circulating to/from the community and the stations.

That said, there is a rail line paralleling the road....use it (instead of BRT) and then the transit could be a bump for needed development and redevelopment in the area.

But shouldn't they have done this (or at least attempted it) in the first place?  The infrastructure is already there for a rail spine-line.  Route the faux-BRT lines off of it.

Now we're doing bass-ackwards and/or not at all.

[uptowngirl]

there is nothing wrong with offering enhanced local bus service with limited stops and good headways.....the issue here is that JTA think they need Federal New Starts/Small Starts money to do it...and as such, they have to call it BRT.

The BRT project will have 10-15 minute headways and cost about $25 million...the federal share will be in the $15-$20 million range.....ao here's my question....why would FTA give JTA another $100+ million for commuter rail on the same corridor, especially if it only runs every 30-60 minutes?

That is the issue alright. So the BRT portion should be the routes off of the commuter rail on Philips. Say up JTB, Bay meadows, Southside. That would be money well spent, and would compliment a commuter rail. That Federal money, is in reality OUR money and should be spent soundly, not just throwing together something that will not be used for the sake of getting the cash. I am confident if this plan goes through as is, you will have some dwellers in the area riding to Walmart, and some of the pimps/hookers/crackheads riding from their weekly hotel room up the street to the stop and rob. Workers are not going to share that bus, and even if they did how would they actually get to their place of work?

[thelakelander]

Strangely enough, after spending $25 million, BRT won't even be stopping at that Walmart.  There will only be five stops spread out over 11 miles.  Stops will most likely be at the intersection of major crossroads, not actual shopping centers, office complexes and other destinations.

[thelakelander]

Here are examples of what you'll be getting dropped off at every 10-15 minutes after your $25 million investment.









I wonder if it would be a better idea to spend that money on sidewalks before buying more buses?

Take the images, the environment above, add the expensive shelters below at the five major intersections and you'll have a good visual image of what BRT will look like after a $25 million investment.





Is this the best way to spend $25 million (easily over $100 million when factoring in all four BRT legs and the downtown segment) for better bus service on Philips?

[JeffreyS]

So it is just a park and ride concept. This just keeps getting worse.

[fieldafm]

Strangely enough, after spending $25 million, BRT won't even be stopping at that Walmart.

That's really the most assanine part of the plan.  The proposed route doesn't connect to one of the only three(four if you include a strip club   ) true major destinations along Phillips.  And if I used this route to get to work(I went home and studied the maps after the meeting), it wouldnt save me any time from what would be my normal bus route when you factor in having a very long transfer time at Phillips/JTB into the Gate Parkway area.
So, really from a personal perspective this proposed plan doesnt really operate any more efficiently than the current bus system... and isn't that the entire point of building it?