Shipyards

[stjr]

I was thinking the shrimp need fresh water as part of their life cycle. No fresh water nearby means less shrimp.  I think that's why the water withdrawals are an issue for shrimpers and why there would be concern over dredging that could make the river saltier as well. 

[thelakelander]

In a worst case scenario, I thought the fresh water just move further south.  If so, wouldn't that just move the harvesting area from north to south, meaning there would be potential for new areas for vessels to dock?  Anyway, I'm not talking about anything major.  I'm talking about a use that could be included with a mix of maritime and public space related uses on this 44-acre site.

[fieldafm]

Thank you Lake.  I want to speak intelligently on some of your ideas, but I've been at work since 730AM and I'm still here with no end in sight so it may not be the weekend until I can give some thoughts, as this is pretty much the schedule I expect to keep through Saturday.

I do see some specific challenges and some opportunities in your vision.

[thelakelander]

No problem.  Just remember the mixed-use vision I'm describing is using the site for organic marine-based purposes (both private and public).  By introducing "connectivity" and "clustering" complementing compact uses I believe natural synergy could be created.  

With this in mind, the things listed above are samples of marine-based uses that maybe could work on some level.  However, I'm sure with detailed thought, some may not and others not mentioned as of yet, may make better sense.

[CS Foltz]

lake.........if the Orlando region has their way and they start siphoning water from the St Johns at their end, then the salinity level will rise at our end. Depending on the type of shrimp reflects what they need to reproduce! Deep water shrimp are one thing......shallow water shrimp are another! There are many types out there.............best shrimp I ever had overseas came from the Gulf of Mexico! Either way, Ship Yards has many potential possibilities! I just hope to hell that the Council does not have some back room deal that we don't know about!

[thelakelander]

Researching the history of the site after the shipyards closed, for years income was generated through the leasing of waterfront space to water-based companies.  Other than the fact that no one really wants industrial use down there anymore, that's still a viable option for the portions of the property even in this economy, if the city desired.

Anyway, I know there has been much focus on the idea of a fisherman's wharf and if it's realistic or not.  However, that's a very minor part of what I threw out on the table.  However, to go into more detail on that particular idea, I'm not talking about building any elaborate expensive structures.  I'm trying to describe something as simple as making one of the four existing piers available for the local commercial fishing industry to moor their vessels and unload their catch. 

By fishing industry I basically mean just about anything you can catch in our local waterways and sell.  So if it isn't shrimp, it could be blue crabs, catfish or whatever.  Anyway, I'm not talking about something as historic and large as San Franscisco's Fisherman's Wharf or a fake remake of one.  I'm talking about just making a pier available for the possibility.  If it fails, all you have is the same empty pier that exists today.  In the event that you attract a couple of vessels (maybe 5 to 10), you create a natural opportunity for the public (assuming there is a riverwalk and public pier adjacent) to potentially purchase fresh seafood directly from the fishermen unloading their catch.  If there is no direct sell, they still have the option to unload and deliver their catch to the various restaurants and markets all over this town.

[Noone]

Yesterday at RCD the legislation that will give the Shipyards back to the city and people of Jacksonville was voted out of committee 5-0 and now goes to the council. We will be getting the property in about 3 weeks. The real discussions as to what will happen now can begin.

Lake, I love the Working Waterfront component.

[Overstreet]

............ I thought the fresh water just move further south.  If so, wouldn't that just move the harvesting area from north to south, ..............

I don't remember the details but the majority of shrimping grounds are a mile off the beach not in the river. The river is limited to smaller trawls like the bait sellers.

[north miami]

If the shrimp head south, wouldn't DT be more closer for the industry to moor vessels than Mayport?  Nevertheless, the local fishing industry is a lot more than just shrimp and allowing commercial fishermen to moor at one of the piers shouldn't really be a complicated thing.  I would image just having as little as 10 boats docked and being unloaded there would do wonders for that space.

Note commercial netting of shrimp was common on the river to points south however the practice has been banned for some time due to harmful effects to the river bottom.
We need to hear from the commercial fishing community as prospective users of the piers.The round trip from Mayport to Downtown is quite a run.$$$$

I was on the river at the piers this weekend and have pondered the property for many hours and days including many discussions with the general public while attending boat shows next door.

  **** The public always speaks glowingly of Downtown as to what could be ****
The vision for the Shipyards is largely one of primarily public ownership and use.

Costs likely prohibit my own vision of infill beteween piers,a meander shoreline creating Gilligan Island Cove and increased dry land.

I have wondered too about a public "Hand Launch" facility for kayaks,canoes.How neat would it be to paddle to Goat Island (next to Arlington Expressway bridge).On the other hand,this particular section of the River is often treacherous for small craft due to extreme tidal current and vessel traffic.

[thelakelander]

Note commercial netting of shrimp was common on the river to points south however the practice has been banned for some time due to harmful effects to the river bottom.
We need to hear from the commercial fishing community as prospective users of the piers.The round trip from Mayport to Downtown is quite a run.$$$$

Just a question.  There are a ton of crab traps between the Buckman and Fuller Warren Bridges.  Where are the vessels that empty these traps coming and going?  A part of me doubts they are all coming from Mayport.

Also follow the river and its tributaries closely on Google Earth.  There are commercial fishing boats docked all along the thing at various private docks and marinas miles from Mayport.

[thelakelander]

Commerical crap traps south of the Fuller Warren (the little balls floating on top of the water)


An example of commercial vessels in marinas miles from Mayport


Green Cove Springs. This image captures what is floating in my mind to a degree.  Focusing on the four existing piers (not the dry land), why can't you have a riverwalk and open those piers up to various marine-based uses at the same time?






Shipyards in 1999 when previous owners were generating income leasing the piers to marine-basd companies, while planning for site redevelopment.


Shipyards in 2010.


Soon back in public ownership but no funds to make real expensive improvements anytime soon.  Property aside, assuming the far left pier is opened to the public, what you do with the remaining piers?

[thelakelander]

By the way, the Shipyards site has more than 4,900 linear feet of waterfront frontage.  In the short term, I guess the city could just plant grass or keep it fenced and generate no income.  Or perhaps it would not be a bad idea to do what the previous owners in the 1990s did to keep the bills paid.

Quotes from TU articles back in 1996.

Shipyards developer threatens showdown
The Florida Times-Union - Tuesday, June 4, 1996
Author: Simon Barker-Benfield, Times-Union business writer


While Hanan is adamant about not returning the shipyard site to industrial use, he is generating cash flow by using part of the site as a shipping terminal while he searches for investors.

About half the property has been leased to Jacksonville International Terminals, also called Cuban Caribbean Shipping Inc., which runs cargo to the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Also renting space is Cross State Towing Co.

Cuban Caribbean continues Guantanamo Bay shipments
The Florida Times-Union - Monday, February 12, 1996
Author: John Finotti, Times-Union business writer

Jacksonville 's Cuban Caribbean Shipping Inc. says it will continue carrying cargo to the U.S. Naval Station in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, for at least another year.

Cuban Caribbean outbid several other firms for the contract with the U.S. Navy Military Sealift Command. The agreement is for one year, followed by two six-month option periods. The total value of a two-year contract is $9 million.

The shipping service provides supplies and military equipment to the U.S. base.

Cuban Caribbean operates a container terminal at the former downtown Jacksonville Shipyards site. It uses tugs and barges to haul the containers to Guantanamo Bay.

Cuban Caribbean Shipping was founded in early 1992 and was first awarded the Guantanamo Bay contract in April 1992.

The company also owns Caribbean Cargo Shipping Inc., which operates shipping service to Haiti, and Jacksonville International Terminals Co., which provides terminal and stevedoring services.

Caribe moving to defunct shipyard
The Florida Times-Union - Saturday, March 29, 1997
Author: John Finotti, Times-Union business writer

While investors, developers and city officials ponder the long-term use of the defunct Jacksonville Shipyards property, small barge lines continue to find the downtown location irresistible as a low-cost seaport terminal.

On Tuesday, a barge that runs supplies between Jacksonville and the U.S. Naval Station at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, will begin using the former shipyards property to load and unload cargo.

The barge line, Caribe USA Inc ., is moving its Jacksonville terminal operations from the Jacksonville Port Authority's Blount Island terminal to the downtown facility because it's cheaper.

Caribe USA compared costs of using Blount Island, the former Jacksonville Shipyard site and the port of Fernandina Beach, and the shipyard was deemed the most cost-effective, said Ken Wear, Caribe's port manager in Jacksonville.

Caribe's barge will be docked for loading at the former shipyard facility every other Tuesday and Wednesday. The barges dock in Guantanamo Bay on alternating Tuesdays and Wednesdays.

The company has signed a six-month lease with the owner of the shipyard, Jacksonville Riverfront Development Ltd, Wear said.

Once an employer of a 1,000 shipyard workers, Jacksonville Shipyards went under in 1990. In 1994, the shipyards' parent, Fruehauf Trailer Corp., sold the property to Jacksonville Riverfront Development.

The development firm's plans to build restaurants, entertainment venues and retail shops on the site have been stymied by a lack of financing.

In the meantime, the company has been able to generate some cash flow by leasing out the pier and dock.

The shipyard property had been used as a shipping terminal by Cuban Caribbean Shipping Inc . until late last year.

Jacksonville-based Cuban Caribbean had the contract to carry cargo to the Navy base, but lost it because of poor performance to Caribe, said a spokesman for the Navy Military Sealift Command. The one-year shipping contract is expected to be put out for bid in September.

Separately, Cuban Caribbean is being sued by its lender for bank fraud and is under federal investigation for possible criminal wrongdoing.

In its suit, Cuban Caribbean 's lender, MTB Bank of New York, said the shipping company's principals, led by Atlanta businessman Boyd L. "Cotton" Hobbs, used a complex scheme involving fictitious companies and phony bills and invoices to cheat the bank out of more than $2 million.

Meanwhile, Caribe USA is looking at starting up barge service in the hotly competitive Jacksonville-to-San Juan, Puerto Rico, trade route.

Presently, Caribe sails to San Juan out of Mobile, Ala.

"We're going to try to expand our liner service into the Caribbean out of Jacksonville," Wear said.

He said the company would use the former shipyard site for the liner service if it's found to be feasible.

Could it be possible to lease out river frontage for a period of time and use that annual income to raise capital to pay for the development of public infrastructure at the site?

[fieldafm]

I had a conversation early this morning and expect to have one possibly Saturday about some of the ideas you suggested Lake.

However, one very important thing you have to remember... the previous two administrations are dead set against maritime uses coming back to this site.  Delaney even tried several times to purchase this property in order to turn it into a large public park.

In the meantime for anyone reading this thread, council members sure could use some emails in support of the public pier today  It takes just as much time to post in this thread than it does to email a councilperson about your thoughts on 2010-604 as it relates to the public pier. 

[north miami]

  Delaney even tried several times to purchase this property in order to turn it into a large public park.

council members sure could use some emails in support of the public pier today  It takes just as much time to post in this thread than it does to email a councilperson about your thoughts on 2010-604 as it relates to the public pier. 

As for me and many others,large public use. The Pier doesn't garner much traction.
As for me,large public use.Period-no interest in just the Pier.Skip just the Pier.

[thelakelander]

I had a conversation early this morning and expect to have one possibly Saturday about some of the ideas you suggested Lake.

However, one very important thing you have to remember... the previous two administrations are dead set against maritime uses coming back to this site.  Delaney even tried several times to purchase this property in order to turn it into a large public park.

I'm very well aware.  I'm just brainstorming.  However, sooner or later something will have to give.  Either we need to man up and raise taxes or find additional methods to generate income to pay for the things that will make our community a better place.