The San Marco Streetcar ...Whats's Wrong With This Picture...

[ZacharyMease]

It appears (from maps on the JTA website) that some consideration has been put into a streetcar that would run within the San Marco area. While this is a GREAT neighborhood to put a streetcar, and one that could certainly entice the feds into supporting future rail, the current plan seems to be designed with too much reverie, and lack of cohesion.
I certainly hope some major changes in the initial plan will occur before the "studies" have already been payed for.

Here's the current route JTA's San Marco Streetcar would follow:

Here's a link to a more interactive map:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=102042896157390680654.00048d46be5fbff148aae&t=h&z=15

Here's my opinion:

... they're missing the most important pieces of the puzzle.

The entire northern portion goes to little more than parking lots, and uncertain development. Does JTA expect the streetcar to be properly supported by Baptist Medical and the Hampton Inn? Local residents would have to walk a distance in the Florida heat across unshaded parking lots, or drive to get to the streetcar ... but since they're already in their cars, might as well just drive the whole distance.


SEND IT HERE:

light green = separated rails
dark green = one rail
Here's a link:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=102042896157390680654.00048d3b68c52009918fa

Assuming something goes through with the massive dirt lot, an extension could easily be planned. Or perhaps a Kings Ave. line could be added...

Put these cars on the tracks:


AND SHAZAM,
not only does Jacksonville have a new icon, but the business people on break, residents, and out of town visitors (sometimes without cars) of the Southbank have just been encouraged to explore, shop, eat, and relax in all of San Marco without the need to get in a hot car and lose their parking spots. For the residents of San Marco, direct access to the skyway, and sometimes work is provided, as well as an economic alternative to automotive transportation.

I'm interested to hear what anyone thinks as well as any updates on the proposed multi-million embarrassment.

[thelakelander]

I don't think its going to happen.  The streetcar plan suffers greatly by having to cross the FEC at grade, which is a no go.  Getting across the river is another major problem.  San Marco's best bet is a mix of commuter rail, a short skyway extension to Atlantic Blvd and a mix of pedestrian, bike and bus improvements to link the entire district with mass transit corridors.

[stjr]

Lake, Zach doesn't show a river crossing so why is this an issue here?

As to FEC grade, I remember us discussing this before and finding a picture of such a crossing with RR tracks.  I say where there is a will, there is a way.  We need to stop giving JTA excuses not to build these routes.  They already come up with enough of their own.  No need to aide and abet their lack of desire to do anything.

[thelakelander]

No river crossing means you're going to need multiple O&M yards.  No big deal if you don't mind increasing your costs and having duplication.  Also, there's a huge difference between finding a picture crossing freight tracks and crossing a mainline railroad.  As for JTA, we really don't need them.  We should take a page out of Dallas' book, imo.

[tufsu1]

As to FEC grade, I remember us discussing this before and finding a picture of such a crossing with RR tracks.  I say where there is a will, there is a way.  

the Tampa streetcar line crosses a CSX track....of course it is a barely used track, and at first delayed the streetcar by 5 minutes each time it crossed (they had to phone CSX to make sure there were no trains coming)....the FEC through San Marco seems to have a train every 30 minutes during the day...that won't work for on-time transit

[fsujax]

I wouldnt get too bent out of shape over any lines on a map at this point! It was only a pre-feasiblity study....nothing to get all worked up over, especially on possible alignments. I am sure MetroJacksonville will tell JTA or whoever builds it what the proper alignment should be when the time comes.

[Cliffs_Daughter]

Part of it may have to do with Baptist Hospital. They have expressed a desire NOT to have public transportation (aka JTA) establish any stops on their property.

[ZacharyMease]

As to FEC grade, I remember us discussing this before and finding a picture of such a crossing with RR tracks.  I say where there is a will, there is a way. 

the Tampa streetcar line crosses a CSX track....of course it is a barely used track, and at first delayed the streetcar by 5 minutes each time it crossed (they had to phone CSX to make sure there were no trains coming)....the FEC through San Marco seems to have a train every 30 minutes during the day...that won't work for on-time transit

A train takes roughly 7 minutes to pass by. If JTA collaborated with CSX than a loose schedule could be worked out to make sure that there's a minimal wait time. As for monitoring the tracks, I see no reason why two lookouts couldn't be posted, or perhaps a phone call is mandatory CSX rule...

I wouldnt get too bent out of shape over any lines on a map at this point! It was only a pre-feasiblity study....nothing to get all worked up over, especially on possible alignments. I am sure MetroJacksonville will tell JTA or whoever builds it what the proper alignment should be when the time comes.

Hah! My heart had dropped to my pants when I saw the BRT southeast corridor plans I couldn't not say anything about this route! ... I'm just a concerned local voicing my opinion on where it should and shouldn't go.

Part of it may have to do with Baptist Hospital. They have expressed a desire NOT to have public transportation (aka JTA) establish any stops on their property.

Could this perhaps be geared towards buses? This is a gold mine of workers and patients looking to get out of the office, I doubt JTA would completely ignore the medical center. They might even have a plan B 

[DeadGirlsDontDance]

Part of it may have to do with Baptist Hospital. They have expressed a desire NOT to have public transportation (aka JTA) establish any stops on their property.

When? Where? Why? I'd love to see this for myself.

[thelakelander]

As to FEC grade, I remember us discussing this before and finding a picture of such a crossing with RR tracks.  I say where there is a will, there is a way. 

the Tampa streetcar line crosses a CSX track....of course it is a barely used track, and at first delayed the streetcar by 5 minutes each time it crossed (they had to phone CSX to make sure there were no trains coming)....the FEC through San Marco seems to have a train every 30 minutes during the day...that won't work for on-time transit

A train takes roughly 7 minutes to pass by. If JTA collaborated with CSX than a loose schedule could be worked out to make sure that there's a minimal wait time. As for monitoring the tracks, I see no reason why two lookouts couldn't be posted, or perhaps a phone call is mandatory CSX rule...

Easier said then done.  Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that FEC (CSX doesn't own that line) has no reason or benefit from allowing streetcars to cross their busy line at grade every 10 -15 minutes.  In the event that a locomotive devours a streetcar there would be lawsuits up the wazoo.  It's hard enough to get commuter rail on these corridors (at least those help fund track and signaling improvements for the freight lines) much less a light weight streetcar at grade that will do nothing more than be a liability on existing operations.  I guess the other option would be to just buy them out but such a cost would sink the entire project.  Thus, if you're dead set on a streetcar in San Marco, if you're going across the railroad tracks, you're probably better spending millions on an elevated crossing of some sort.

[Ocklawaha]

SOUTH JACKSONVILLE MUNICIPAL RAILWAY #110 AT THE BUILDER, (Photo Courtesy Washington University, St. Louis)

The only way a streetcar or Light Rail would work in the Southside without Lake's expensive viaduct over the FEC, would be for such a line to run straight EAST down Prudential from either the Acosta or Main Street bridges. A streetcar run right off the end of Prudential and through the JEA lot and swinging up on Atlantic/Beach at the Catholic school would at least have a way out without involving the FEC RY.

As for crossing the railroad every 10-15 minutes? FORGET IT. You are NOT fighting a schedule in this territory, rather, you would be fighting "Per diem" and "demurrage" accumulations from every freight car that passes this way. In short the railroad's pay a per diem fee for every foreign railroad car on their track. Huh? Say What?
Yes Martha, at the risk of over simplification, every CSX car on the FEC is costing the FEC money per day. FEC is earning a transportation charge, but as one can imagine if they sit on the car the per diem will eat the profit. Meanwhile a car that has been delayed in unloading goes into a penalty phase called demurrage, as the day's tick by this alone can get expensive.

Bowden Yard is where the FEC "builds trains" for the sprint to south Florida, CSX, NS, Jaxport, and Talleyrand Terminal deliver the cars at an interchange yard west of the I-95 overpass at the old Jacksonville Terminal. The minute they touch FEC rails the clock starts ticking. FEC will immediately dispatch an engine to go pick up the cars and bring them into Bowden. What is the schedule? THERE ISN'T ONE! Sure there are a few trains that make the trek right on time every day, but all sorts of cars arrive out of the time sequence, based more on the other railroads operations, special shipments, the weather or the trainmasters mood. So these "transfer tracks" can be active 24/7/365, anywhere, any time, any direction.

Don't feel bad for the FEC though, because CSX is playing the same game between the end of the FEC interchange and their own Moncrief Yard, Norfolk Southern is playing to Simpson Yard and Talleyrand Terminal to the MDT Yard. NONE of this terminal trackage and very few of the movements through them run according to a clock. Transfer cuts of cars, in, out, in, out, all the time, forever.

Now what were we planning with that trolley?

Looks to me like Skyway Territory!
But I certainly understand your desire... I think it's City-Wide!

OCKLAWAHA