Shipyards

[downtownjag]

I'd go for public/private mixed use, maybe a Shands/UF treatment center; something that will bring life to the area... and money, between the physicians and patients.  I'm not referring to an ER/hospital, but proton therapy, cancer treatment.

Or a set of upscale apartments that could be cost effectively converted to condo's if the market had demand for it down the road. 

Definitely something private sector that's going to generate tax revenue.  I don't agree with a non tax revenue producing park, we're already broke; that cost's money to create, upkeep, and would be another bum beacon.  A complex that mirrored the Strand and Peninsula on the Northbank would be cool, not sure about economic feasibility however. 

Final idea, some type of Academic campus would be absolutely beautiful. 

[thelakelander]

Field, i've been in Kansas City and St. Louis for the last week.  My internet accessibility is limited to my phone.  I'm eating in a downtown dive and will be heading to the airport in a couple of hours. So i'll give you a detailed response when I get back to Jax later tonight.

[urbanlibertarian]

I chose other.  I would like to see the property sold (except what's needed for Riverwalk and streetside ROW for streetcar, bikes and pedestrians).  Let the new property owners use it as they wish.

[urbanlibertarian]

Perhaps the city should create or restore (don't know if they ever existed) extensions of Marsh and Palmetto streets from Bay St to the Riverwalk extension to improve public access and divide the property.

[rjp2008]

[Captain Zissou]

I chose other.  I would rather see this get developed with a minimal area set aside for public space, other than the piers.  I think everything that goes in here should address the street with retail/restaurants/bars, but no park space.  There is plenty of underutilized public space around there already.  When private development stretches that far east, the public space will be more of an asset.

I think the JEA site is better for creating public space.  The block closest to the water could be a great public park, with fountains, an amphitheatre, and a great lawn.  A well designed street with bike lanes and wide sidewalks could be next.  Back from that would be mid-rise (5-7 story) residential with cafes and bars at street level and patios.  Behind that would be 14-20 story office or apartments.

[904Scars]

Hell yes! Not sure where the $ would come from but that's awesome!

[rjp2008]

We can make a smaller scale version. With containers it would be as cheap. Do it like RAM. Rent out 20 or more containers and start bringing in revenue. Revenue pays for expanding into a larger multi-level container mall/residence.

[rjp2008]

Set five of these suckers up on the Pier at night for an instant PARTY.

[simms3]

Choices are a little too simplified.  Other: Public park/entertainment park not unlike Chicago's Grant/Millenium Parks, with a hotel, maybe some condos on one end.  If the sports district had more stuff going on, that end could be towards the sports district, though at this point it would have to be closer to Berkman/Bay.  The hotel and possible condos would clearly have commercial space at the bottom.  The hotel could have a really cool outdoor lounge overlooking the river and park, and/or a club that had an outdoor component doing the same thing.  People could leave the hotel/bar/club to go to the park or vice versa come in from the park.  I envision a more hip hotel like a W.

The bad thing is that no hotel is going up anywhere in the metro for the near to medium future and definitely not downtown.  The hotel market has bottomed out (some say) in the past 2 months, but it could drop some more and Jacksonville is way overbuilt right now.  I am sure in a different environment and different economy, any developer would love to put higher density on that site and incorporate it with a park, but it ain't happening for a long while.

Lastly, I think the current courthouse site/parking lot is a better place to put a convention center since the land is already essentially owned by the city and there is a 966 room hotel next door already in place.  Our convention center does not need to be large.  I agree with Stephen on this one; the convention business has deteriorated overall across the country and if and when it picks back up Jacksonville is not going to be able to compete with our immediate neighbor down south, Chicago, Las Vegas, San Diego, Boston, NYC, Atlanta, or virtually any other city that has a really large and elaborate space.  We just need a few hundred thousand square feet in a cool riverfront building, like Vancouver's new convention center expansion.  Whatever's built will need to make a statement and will need to be green, either Energy Star or LEED, preferably the latter.

[thelakelander]

I picked other.  DT needs organic uses that stimulate long term economic growth. So at this point, i'm going to go with a  working waterfront filled with maritime oriented uses and public space.  By maritime, I don't mean a container port but but maybe a mix of uses like a fisherman's wharf, seafood restaurants, marinas, small boat repair, marine science school, etc.

Ok, I've been curious since you brought it up a few weeks ago.

A few questions.... who would invest in these type of projects?  There really isn't a pentup demand for waterfront dining in Jax.  RCBC gets a sweet deal, CPC got a great deal at the Landing, there is another open spot at the Landing(which hopefully can be filled with a pretty cool tenant soon).  The shipyards site will be expensive to aquire and develop.  Much more expensive than the typical restaurantour or fisherman could afford to setup shop at.
There is indeed a burgeoning ship building/repair industry in my neighborhood now and that is pretty much a legacy type industry.  Not much demand for people my age looking to start up small vessel repair businesses along expensive premium property.

fieldafm, I didn't forget about you, I just had to settle in after getting back in to town to provide you with a detailed answer.

Shipyards site




My "Other" revolves around filling this 44-acre site and its multiple piers with a diverse range of marine-based activities, both public and private.  Some of the random uses listed below alone won't amount to anything but combined they could create a very unique organically grown urban atmosphere.  Thinking "water-based", here are some potential uses that could be combined on this site because they don't take up a lot of land and the fact that there are a number of piers still in place.

1. Public Pier

This one is simple.  There's no reason the pier adjacent to Berkman Plaza should not become a public pier.  It's long an wide enough to accomodate green space, containers if you want them, shelters and several other pedestrian friendly amenities.


2. Marine Biotechnology, Research & Education  

An example would be the Center of Marine Biotechnology in Baltimore's Inner Harbor (it's actually right next door to Hard Rock Cafe)

It comprises four centers:

Center for Advanced Research in Biotechnology (CARB)
Center for Biosystems Research (CBR)
Center of Marine Biotechnology (COMB)
Medical Biotechnology Center (MBC)
UMBI Central Administration is currently located in the Columbus Center in the Inner Harbor, Baltimore, Maryland. The Columbus Center's Hall of Exploration was used at the home for a short-lived marine biotechnology museum from May through December 1997.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Maryland_Biotechnology_Institute


3. Full service boat yard  

Do we have a true full service boatyard in DT Jax?  One that features a marina, boat sales, service, rentals, maintenance, repair, dry and wet storage.  I know that there were complaints about them disappearing due to big time developers snapping them up for waterfront condos a few years back.  These things don't have to take up a lot of land and could be centered around on of the existing piers.


4. Fisherman's Wharf

Considering their length and width, this activity could easily take place on one of the existing four piers.  With the longest pier being a public pier not to far away, opportunities of fisherman selling their fresh catch to the public become a possibility.  By sticking these uses adjacent to each other, organically you make a home grown seafood market feasible.


Here is an article from a similar idea being looked at in downtown St. Petersburg.  I don't know the economic numbers for commercial fishing in Jacksonville but I wonder could something small scale work at the Shipyards?

Seattle, San Francisco and St. Petersburg?
St. Petersburg Times (FL) - Sunday, August 13, 2006
Author: AARON SHAROCKMAN AND STEPHEN NOHL

Desperate for space to unload their catch, commercial fisherman want the city to make the Port of St. Petersburg into a thriving fisherman's wharf .

The open-air seafood market - like ones already in Seattle, San Francisco and other major coastal cities - would draw curious tourists and give new downtown residents another destination along St. Petersburg's sprawling waterfront, the fishermen say.

The fisherman say the public wharf also could reinvigorate Florida's smallest port, which has lost $1.2-million since October 2003. It stands to lose an additional $748,000 next year, according to the city.

But city leaders aren't sure what they want to do on the waterfront.

The area already serves as a base of operations for the Coast Guard and several marine research institutions, and the city has long wished the port would become a cruise destination.

Presented recently with the idea of adding a fish market, Mayor Rick Baker was reluctant to commit to any specific future.

For local fishermen, however, St. Petersburg may be their last great hope.

"We are not asking for a free lunch," said Will Ward, a St. Petersburg resident and third-generation fisherman who owns Captain's Finest Seafood in Tampa. "We are asking for something that will provide revenue.

"We could put 100 boats down there tomorrow."

Nowhere else to go

Commercial fishing is a $100-million industry in Pinellas County, Ward estimates. But the local industry is in risk of dying because there is nowhere left for commercial fishermen to dock.

In the past seven years, Pinellas County has lost three of its four largest fish houses to development. The last remaining one, Madeira Beach Seafood, sits on leased land that is for sale.

A handful of small fish houses operate in Tarpon Springs, Madeira Beach and Redington Shores, but their slips can hold only a few dozen boats.

Ward and Bobby Spaeth, who owns Madeira Beach Seafood, are searching for new locations to develop, but coastal land is too expensive.

That's why both have turned to St. Petersburg, a city that still owns much of its waterfront.

Though the two men are working independently, their ideas for the port are similar.

Both want to turn the area into a working waterfront for commercial fisherman.

They believe the spectacle of huge fish being unloaded, hundreds of pounds at a time, is enough to create a tourist attraction.

Plus, visitors could purchase fresh fish right on the waterfront. Where grouper would cost $16 a pound at a grocery store, Ward said it could sell for $10 a pound directly from the fishermen.

There could be flowers and produce and antiques for sale nearby, even a seafood restaurant, Ward and Spaeth say.

"This could be an East Coast San Francisco if they could do it right," said Martin Fisher, a commercial fisherman who sells his catch at St. Petersburg's Saturday market.

"It's just not a place for us to unload our fish," added Ward. "It becomes a BayWalk Two."

Besides dock space, the fishermen would need a place to refuel and huge ice machines to keep their catch fresh, Ward and Spaeth said. They're unsure how much the changes would cost, or who would pay for them.

For it to happen, though, city officials might have to finally abandon one of their longest-held hopes, that St. Petersburg can become a destination for cruise ships.

'Call' unanswered

St. Petersburg leaders have hoped to make their city a port of call for the cruise industry since at least 1986. But cruise ships, including the troubled Ocean Jewel gambling casino, have failed to stick here.

City officials, however, continue to hold some hope.

The city is waiting on a Army Corps of Engineers report to see if a channel could be dug to accommodate hulking, modern cruise liners. That report, due later this year, will likely determine the city's next step.

In the meantime, a series of expansions are being considered along the 1,200-foot-long port wall, including 25,000 additional square feet of retail space and a marine educational component called Port Discovery. That plan, fishermen say, could adapt well into a Fisherman's Wharf -type concept.

Could it work here?

City officials like the thought of a working waterfront, though they differ on where it might work best.

Rick Mussett, the city development administrator, said conceivably a wharf could be constructed into the approach to the city's Pier, which is scheduled to be rebuilt in the coming years.

And Mayor Rick Baker said there may be possibilities at the south end of Bayboro Harbor, opposite the port facilities.

"Over the past few years, with the real estate industry being as hot as it is, lots of folks said to change the zoning to allow residential," Baker said of the area around the harbor. "But I've resisted that. Having a marine area is a good thing."

Baker said he would meet with the fishermen to discuss the concept.

City Council member Jamie Bennett said he's interested in the fish house concept at the port, where he said something needs to be done.

"I like the idea of a fisherman's wharf ," said Bennett, who offered to work with the fishing industry on a proposal. "What we have down there isn't working. It's high time to try something else."

5. Minor ship or barge repair and building?  


The addition of a marine-based industrial use may be the one that many may not agree with but here goes.  I wonder if there is opportunity to lure one of the smaller operations (Green Cove Springs, Palatka, etc.) that are south of us that happen to be limited in growth due to bridge heights and rising fuel costs?  While the industry might not be a booming one, its well paying and as long as we have a port, the navy and water, it disappearing anytime soon.  In fact, the North Florida Shipyards in Commodore's Point seems to be doing well enough to expand.  

The land underneath the ramps to the Hart Bridge at Commodore Point may not be empty much longer. North Florida Shipyards , a 42-year-old Jacksonville ship repair and conversion company with operations at Commodore Point and Mayport, has big plans for the space.

If you've driven over the Mathews or Hart bridges, you've likely spotted ships anchored at the company's 3,600 feet of bulkhead wharf where they are undergoing repairs. Now, with the addition of a mobile vessel hoist, the company plans to expand, lifting vessels out of the river and dry-docking them in the shadows of the bridge's ramps.

The $7.6 million project will upgrade North Florida Shipyards ' downtown facilities, nearly doubling the company's employee base over the next four years, adding 246 employees to its current 320.

August is the target date for the installation of the hoist, as well as a new basin that will allow for the lifting and launching of ships weighing up to 600 metric tons on the St. Johns River.

Planning for ship repairs is an arduous task.

"We operate in the blind," says Robert Wilson, the company's vice president and CFO. "We never know what we are getting into until you get a ship up and out of the water."

In the world of marine repair, owners don't make maintenance decisions - ship classification services, such as the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS), do. Once a ship is out of the water, ABS surveys it, gauging it against industry rules and specifications. It then designates what repairs need to be performed. Ship owners have no choice - don't comply and the vessel is no longer insurable.

That can make it difficult to plan ahead. North Florida 's dry dock, a solid-concrete pontoon built by the Navy during World War II, accommodates two ships. If one needs lengthy repairs, both are held up as it's not a simple process to re-float the second ship.

The new vessel hoist will solve that problem, allowing the company to dry-dock vessels on the 25-acre site and serve more customers. How many it can dry-dock depends on the size of the vessels.

Wilson says the company's workforce is aging, and he faces challenges with hiring experienced workers. As a result, he's exploring options, such as creating an apprenticeship program.

"There's really no training program to bring these types of employees to us," he said. "I'm looking for individuals with aptitude and attitude. If you have those, I can give you a career."

So, North Florida Shipyards will employ 566 high salary workers on a 25-acre site when their lift is completed?  That's a lot more people than many of the white collar bigwigs we're worried about leaving the office towers.  Plus it's organic. While you can pick up and move an office because you get better lease rates in the Southside, you can't pick up and move a marina, a wharf, build a new pier or marine education facility on the drop of a dime.

How is this idea(which I have to say has piqued my curiosity) more economically viable(read not HEAVILY subsidized by the city) than say something like this:


http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-may-encore-tampa-a-lesson-for-urban-jacksonville

This is a good topic

I believe you have to plan specific sites based on local context and opportunity.  The Encore lesson for Jacksonville is the urban layout and footprint, not the specific uses.  Instead of trying to force affordable housing on waterfront property (not economically viable without heavy public subsidies), why not implement an urban plan that plays to the strengths of the site's physical and natural assets?  After thinking about this long and hard, my mind tells me that marine-based activity makes the most sense.  It also tells me with the jail and Maxwell House being next door, even some limited industrial use may be feasible, as long as we find a link between that use creating well paying jobs and stimulating the DT atmosphere.

Anyway, at this point, the list above is just a random assortment of organic water-based economic generating uses that could be easily combined with public space on a 44-acre linear waterfront site with four very long piers and nearly a mile of waterfront frontage.  While not all of these uses may be considered sexy and cutting edge for the modern day yuppy, combined they could create quite an economic scene with round the clock activity. A scene that won't pick up and move anytime soon, no matter what happens in the Southside, Clay or St. Johns Counties.  Plus, since most of these uses don't involve massive buildings, cost to implement should be cheaper and you would still have land available for a mix of additional complementing uses such as support retail, dining or housing.  

All things considered, we can enhance and add park space in other areas, including Metropark and the stadium's surface lots right next door.  We should place a convention center right next to the Hyatt Hotel and Bay Street district once the courthouse abandons that property.  We should forget about luxury housing because that won't be happening anytime soon and it won't make downtown anymore vibrant than the Peninsula, the Strand and San Marco Place do for the Southbank.  On the other hand, we have a limited supply of space, land and opportunity where a multitude of marine-based activities (public and private) can take place in close proximity to each other.

So to directly answer your questions...

Who would invest in these types of projects?

Since they are public and private, the city would have to invest in the creation of a public pier and riverwalk.  The city would probably have to work with local colleges to create some sort of marine based or logistical training center or program.  A fisherman's wharf would be created by making a pier accessible to local fishermen to moor their vessels and unload their catch.  A marine based industry could be lured by the JEDC like they do for any other company looking to relocate, expand or create jobs.

There isn't demand for waterfront dining in Jax.

You create demand by turning the site into a place where several people visit on a regular basis for a variety of uses.  You successfully pull that off and you'll get someone there who will attempt to make money off of those potential hungry pier visitors, industrial employees, students, fishermen and leisure boaters.

The shipyards site will be expensive to aquire and develop.  Much more expensive than the typical restaurantour or fisherman could afford to setup shop at.

We're going to acquire it through foreclosure.  The piers are already in place, so we don't have to build those.  To get started we could open two piers to the public and fisherman and proceed from there.

Not much demand for people my age looking to start up small vessel repair businesses along expensive premium property.

North Florida Shipyards proves that some existing companies are still in expansion mode.  Similar marine based industries in Green Cove Springs and Palatka also exist.  We could possible put together some plan to lure them and the jobs they create to a highly visible site that will save them on fuel costs, help with worker recruitment and allow for company growth.

[CS Foltz]

Unless City Hall has a hidden buyer for the Ship Yards property, sounds good to me! With the refusal of Mr Gaffney (Mr Redman says yes but has done nothing to this date concerning the Public Pier)to present any amendment to ensure the Pier returns to the public, that part should be seperate! If that could get off the ground, rail might become a viable alternative for both in and out! CSX could run a spur line in and out and lease time slots for local traffic...............lots of possiblities here! Limited to our pocket books and imagination!

[thelakelander]

Following up on my post yesterday, I've been trying to dig for information regarding the commercial fishing industry here.  I'm not in the fishing industry, so all of this stuff is a learning experience for me.  However, if our river is full of white shrimp, blue crabs and catfish, I wonder what would be the negatives in allowing local fishermen the opportunity to moor and unload their vessels on one of the piers at the Shipyards?  It would seem like combining this with a public pier nearby would open up opportunities for the public to buy fresh local seafood right at the Shipyards.

Shrimpers fret contest for freshwater will drain industry

Commercial trawlers against plan to siphon off St. Johns River water

DAVID HUNT

Mayport's commercial shrimpers fear a plan to pump freshwater from the St. Johns River could send their harvest swimming south.

The migration would pack a crippling blow to a $9.8 million local industry and long-standing tradition already dwindling in numbers on the St. Johns River.

"We'd lose it all," said Janie Thomas, executive director of the Shrimp Producer's Association. "They might not be able to keep doing it and paying the bills without going on welfare. We're too proud for that."

Thomas is one of the latest protesters rallying against a plan to replenish a distressed Central Florida water supply with freshwater from the St. Johns River and a tributary, the Ocklawaha.

Groundwater alone is not expected to be enough to quench the Orlando region past 2013. The net effect of a potential 262 million-gallon daily river withdrawal would be a 4.9 percent reduction in freshwater flowing north through Jacksonville.

The river's level isn't expected to decrease though, because more south-flowing ocean water likely would fill the void. But that's where many in Jacksonville, from shrimpers to environmentalists and public officials, have begun to worry.

A primary concern for commercial shrimpers is how far south the saltwater will go, and how far shrimp will follow.

Scientists studying the plan for the St. Johns River Water Management District say modeling based on five years of data shows the freshwater withdrawal should not have a significant impact on the river's salinity or aquatic life.

Sonny Hall, a technical program manager for the water management district, said modeling based on five years of data suggests the average salinity level will rise by a small fraction.

"Granted, we'd feel better about this model if we had 20 to 30 years of data. We're working to get more," he said. "We don't feel there's a cause for alarm and we understand everyone's concerns."

Quinton White, a Jacksonville University biologist and the school's arts and sciences dean, said the water management district's study doesn't comfort him. He said drought alone this summer moved the seawater so far south in the St. Johns River that recreational fishers were catching shrimp in Palatka.

"We already saw this happen once naturally this summer. It's one of those things that the district is disputing as not a big deal," he said. "But we don't know that it's not a big deal. The question is what would be the long-term effects."

Thomas said commercial shrimpers, by law, can't trawl south of the Buckman Bridge.

Lee Schlesinger, a spokesman for the state Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, said commercial fishing zones can be a complicated issue - based on regulations developed over many years to prevent multi-species catches and ensure the species being harvested can regenerate.

For the same reasoning, Thomas said she thinks fighting for a larger shrimping zone would be pointless.

"These things have pretty much been set in stone," Schlesinger said. "They didn't come up because of one or two reasons. There were dozens of reasons."

A Times-Union analysis of state records shows Duval County shrimpers have caught an average of nearly 14 percent of the food and bait shrimp produced statewide this decade.

Statistics from 2006 and so far 2007 show an upward surge, though, with the 7.4 million pounds of shrimp brought ashore in Duval County accounting for nearly a quarter of the state's catch in that time frame.

However, the records show the average wholesale price for a pound of food shrimp - the lion's share of the catches - has dropped 37 cents, or about 15 percent, since 2000. Thomas said the costs of fuel and maintaining a shrimping vessel have continued to go up and the highly regulated business is difficult for potential shrimpers to break into.

Between Nassau and Duval counties, she said there are 48 commercial shrimping permits, but only about 20 of the shrimpers remain active.

Andrew Thompson, 69, of Mayport, has been shrimping since he was 14.

He said the freshwater withdrawal may accelerate the twilight years of his career.

"I probably could survive. My house is paid for and everything," he said. "Now, my son - he's a full-time shrimper and if he had to quit, he'd have to sell everything off and move out of Jacksonville."

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/111107/bus_216500875.shtml

The blue crab industry is economically one of Florida’s most important fisheries. Florida produces over 10 million pounds of blue crabs each year. Colorful trap buoys dot Florida estuaries from Pensacola to Jacksonville. The economic value to the state exceeds $48 million annually. Florida's fisherman, local crab houses and coastal communities are the heart and soul of the industry.

http://www.fl-seafood.com/news/08-10-05.htm

White Shrimp
Where the oceans meets the lower St. Johns River is an estuary; in fact, it's Florida's largest at 2,777 square miles. White shrimp, such as this one, spawn offshore but use the river's lower basin as a nursery to mature. Commercial and sport shrimpers operate between Jacksonville and Palatka.

Blue Crab
The blue crab is a St. Johns inhabitant more commonly associated with oceans than rivers. During warmer months, blue crabs move up and down the river, reaching as far south as Lake George. They spawn in cooler months in the lower basin of the River, near the Atlantic Ocean.

http://www.theriverreturns.org/explore/profile/text/

From 2006 to 2007, crabbers reported to the Fish and Wildlife Conservation a 13.5 percent dip in Gulf Coast landings. The numbers for 2008 have not yet been recorded, but anecdotally, the agency expects another dip, McMillen-Jackson said.

The decline in local crabs has led many fishermen to drive miles out of their way to find the crabs, a signature dish for many local eateries.

Mark Davis, 46, who owns the Crab Hut, a wholesale and retail fish distribution store on Martin Luther King Jr. Drive, drives to the St. John's River near Jacksonville. He started doing so last month, when the crabs just couldn't be found in the Alafia River or in Clearwater, where he normally lays traps.

He pulled up all 100-plus traps and drove north.

"I was running 130 traps and getting 100 pounds of crabs, which is terrible. I said, 'I had enough of this.' "

In Jacksonville, he ran 240 traps and got 600 pounds. Big difference.

Longtime crabbers have experienced dips in the crab population before. In 2000 and 2001, a record drought in the area, the industry went through similar woes. About that time, Travis Johnson, owner of 40th Street Seafood, hooked up with distributors in Louisiana and started getting the blue crabs flown in from there.

He's doing that again now.

"We have local crabbers that are really, really having a rough time," Johnson said. "My two crabbers, I told them to take off for a couple of weeks until the crabs pick up."

For those crabbers who do travel, even if their bounty is bigger up north, it doesn't mean that their profit margin is any wider. The culprit: gas.

Davis, owner of the Crab Hut, drives two trucks hauling two boats up to Jacksonville, at a cost of $230 round trip. The gas to fuel the boats costs $175.

It's either pay up for the gas to travel or get no crabs at all.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/jul/03/031416/lack-blue-crabs-pinching-fishermens-pockets/c_1/

[stjr]

Lake, if shrimpers are concerned about fresh water withdrawals affecting the river's salinity, the next issue likely to arise will be the impact of the port's desired dredging of the river.  Like the shrimpers vs. JPA on the cruise terminal, I don't expect their interests to fare any better with the port's dredging plans.

[thelakelander]

If the shrimp head south, wouldn't DT be more closer for the industry to moor vessels than Mayport?  Nevertheless, the local fishing industry is a lot more than just shrimp and allowing commercial fishermen to moor at one of the piers shouldn't really be a complicated thing.  I would image just having as little as 10 boats docked and being unloaded there would do wonders for that space.