Shipyards

[stjr]

Im aware of the academic claims.

But they are based on a shell game premise.

Aye, Stephen, changing the rules in the middle of the game, are we not?  You asked for support.  I produce just a sample of the endless studies posted from a Google search supporting my point.  And, now you say they are all an academic shell game.  You are lumping in the American Planning Association which consists of working planning professionals, not mere university academics.  Tell Lake what you think of his professional association! 

Once again, you are introducing yourself as an expert on all subjects not to be challenged.  Putting yourself above those who have made a career extensively studying the subject.  Sorry, Stephen.  You are bright, but not so much so that you can nonchalantly dismiss every pronouncement from whatever source that undermines your position.  Time to adopt another strategy in making your points.

[stjr]

One case study example of several cited in this 6 page report.  See link at end for full report.

For years a two-acre parcel in the midst of Boston’s
financial district was occupied by an unsightly, 500,000-
square-foot concrete parking garage. But in the early 1980s, atthe urging of surrounding businesses, the city joined a unique public-private partnership to demolish the structure and create
a privately funded underground garage covered by a graceful
park.

Today, the Park at Post OΣce Square features a
spreading lawn, polished granite walls, teak benches, a 143-
foot formal garden, a walk-through sculpture fountain, and a
café. Each day as many as 2,000 people stream up the escalators
from the garage to jobs in the surrounding high-rises.
“Post OΣce Square Park has changed Boston forever,”
wrote Boston Globe architecture critic Robert Campbell. “The
business district used to be an unfathomable maze of street
and building without a center. The park provides that center,
and all around it, as if by magic or magnetism, the whole
downtown suddenly seems gathered in an orderly array. It’s
as if the buildings were pulling up to the park like campers
around a bonfire.”

This rare open space in Boston’s crowded financial district
has boosted the value of surrounding properties while providing
an elegant green focus to a crowded commercial area. The
city receives $1 million a year for its ownership interest in the
garage, and $1 million in annual taxes. After the construction
debt is paid, ownership of the garage and park will revert to
the city.

“The garage that formerly filled that block was really a
negative,” says architect and city planner Alex Garvin, who
has written extensively on the role of open space in urban
economies. “It simply wasn’t attractive for a business to be
located opposite a multistory parking structure.” But with
the parking relocated below ground and the park created on
top, all that changed, particularly given that the park is not
just decorative space but has become a popular gathering
spot. “There’s a café there,” Garvin says. “You can sit in the
park. It has become an attractive place where people want to
be. And now that people want to be in the park, businesses
want to be across the street from it and the value of that
property goes up.”

http://www.tpl.org/content_documents/Chap3.pdf

[stjr]

STJR.  You asked me if I had heard of the APA.  The question was a little insulting.

Stephen, I never asked you this question.  You are imagining things.

And I demonstrated to you the fallacy of the argument, which I have had to demonstrate a number of times, in a number of settings, and in a couple of different cities.

Its odd that you find it strange that while posting on an urban planning and policy website that one of the founders of the website might have some background in the subject.  I would think that it would be kind of implied by the simple fact that you are on an urban planning site.....i dunno.

You gave a HYPOTHETICAL example in which you made up all the assumptions/facts.  No support that the real world actually works this way, especially in an URBAN environment which is what I am referring to and which has a whole different context than a virgin hundred acres on a rural/suburban tract.

I do not have a position, nor am I defending one.  You stated a very oft repeated meme, and I asked you to provide some evidence for it.

You do have at least one position that is apparent:  You don't support using the Shipyards as a public park.  Looks like you prefer some form of private development instead.  Attacking my position is a form of defending yours.

Instead you started pulling essays from land planning texts, without critically examining the information that you were posting.

I have pointed out to you the problems behind that source of data, and in the process answered your insulting question about my familiarity with the subject material.

Now you would like to undermine my points, not by answering the factual basis of them, but by trying to present me as a 'know it all'.

Stephen, I have cited studies which are footnoted and include specific facts and examples.  You have only provided a hypothetical calculation and no "non-Stephen" factual information.  The only insult here is the one from you to me but that's OK, I am used to it by now.  And, I don't have to present you as a "know it all" because you do such a great job of presenting yourself.  

This is usually an admission of defeat.

So, unless you have some further evidence to produce, I consider the matter settled, and will attempt to overlook your peevish attitude.

Take your own medicine.

[thelakelander]

Let's keep this one on topic guys. Stjr, I don't discount the fact that parks can spur development.  However, we already have a waterfront park right next door and it has not stimulated anything.  Why not work with that and expand by turning the stadium's surface lots into active green space?  This method gives you more open space, waterfront access and opportunity to strengthen your tax base by bringing a mix of uses to the Shipyards site (which could still have a riverwalk, pier and integrated public spaces, btw).

[stjr]

^Lake, all I ever wanted to do was to offer a rationale for using the Shipyards as a public park, one of the choices on the survey.  All discussion after that was "beyond my control".  

The difference with Metro Park to me is that it is currently more disconnected to the fabric of downtown proper.  Also, I don't see the harm in having the full Metro Park/Shipyard's stretch as one park.  It sure remains far behind rivaling major parks in other cities so I am not concerned about overdoing a good thing.  That's just my OPINION, not a declaration of FACT.  Listening, Stephen?

By the way, I am not adverse to a hybrid solution in which a park incorporates a permanent "street fair" of some sort.

[stjr]

The clear implication is that I might need to have the APA explained for me.  Considering we have been twice recognized by organs of the APA, it seems a bit ironic.

Let's clear this up, now, Stephen.  The explanation wasn't for your benefit, its was for the benefit of MJ readers at large.   You definitely are thinking out of the box.  You may be a founder of MJ (thank you very much!), but it is now in the public domain and the audience, as you regularly tout, is far wider than just yourself.  I am mindful  of that when composing my posts.

[stjr]

I recently discovered from Ock that many of the US municipal parks after the development of streetcars were linear parks that mirrored the routes, and that this was one of the ways that parkland was used to give value to the adjacent residential development.

Run a street car line down Bay Street to the Arena/Stadium/Metro Park area and make us all happy.

[Noone]

Shipyards

First I hope that the Promised Public Pier is saved with an amendment to 2010-604 that is pending legislation and is in two committees. RCD, Finance, Final vote could be Aug.24

I picked Open space right now because in my opinion the administration is focusing on the Entertainment component of our new 2005-1283.

So with Entertainment being the focus use the open space for competitions.
Jacksonville's Waterfront Jocks.

Have competitions and the winners can be posted every week. Come and compete when you can make it. Different catagories.

1. Longest frisbee throw.
2. Have a spin on the Punt, Pass and Kick.
3. Longest Field goal.
4. Weightlifting

You get the idea. Think small and grow. There is an opportunity for someone who wants a job to run this. As you take down the fences redirect them so they can be used to create boundries for the various catagories. Some events can use the same space. For example the frisbie throw can be at the same space for the football throw. Schedule times.

Create activity immediately. Fred Kent the power of 10

Open the activities for grade school, high school college division.
Age catagories. Men divisions/ Women divisions.

People will come back and defend their titles.
Run this by Downtown Vision.
Check the winners and current records on Metrojacksonville.com

 

[rjp2008]

Interesting that many of you chose the Convention center mixture. Mullaney/Haskell has talked/written about that.

Park Space? By a coffee plant, jail and sherrifs office?

I think the best place to make a GRAND city park would be expanding in RIVERSIDE. Cummer already there, RAM. The original plan was to extend RP to the River. Keep the Schools and entice the offices (in time) to 200 Riverside or Brooklyn complex

[904Scars]

Interesting that many of you chose the Convention center mixture. Mullaney/Haskell has talked/written about that.

Park Space? By a coffee plant, jail and sherrifs office?

I think the best place to make a GRAND city park would be expanding in RIVERSIDE. Cummer already there, RAM. The original plan was to extend RP to the River. Keep the Schools and entice the offices (in time) to 200 Riverside or Brooklyn complex

I say this over and over about our city and its "planners / developers"... Take a look at other large Southern cities! Charleston, SC is a PERFECT example of waterfront parks done right! In fact check out "Waterfront Park" in Charleston... absolutely GORGEOUS... they have several large fountains right on the water, where children play and couples walk along the tree covered sidewalks. They even have a decent sized pier going out into the water with covered sections.

I found some really nice pictures of it but they are way to big to post... just search Google Maps for "Waterfront Park"

[thelakelander]

Just search for our Elements of Urbanism: Charleston articles.  You'll find a lot of park images in them.

[BridgeTroll]

My $.02... I'm with you Lake.  Not sure I like the choices presented here.  Not in favor of the Hotel/convention center/retail option.  Too far out of the core for my tastes.  A Convention center located there would be adjacent to... nothing.  A redesigned Metro Park without fences and better access fulfills the idea of having a park in the area on the water front.  I believe I would be partial to residential... apartment/condo development with the riverwalk extended to Metro Park...

What is going to happen to the abandoned condo development?

[904Scars]

What is going to happen to the abandoned condo development?

I've also wondered about this! And I totally agree, I don't think the shipyard the right place for a new convention center.

[fieldafm]

I picked other.  DT needs organic uses that stimulate long term economic growth. So at this point, i'm going to go with a  working waterfront filled with maritime oriented uses and public space.  By maritime, I don't mean a container port but but maybe a mix of uses like a fisherman's wharf, seafood restaurants, marinas, small boat repair, marine science school, etc.

Ok, I've been curious since you brought it up a few weeks ago.

A few questions.... who would invest in these type of projects?  There really isn't a pentup demand for waterfront dining in Jax.  RCBC gets a sweet deal, CPC got a great deal at the Landing, there is another open spot at the Landing(which hopefully can be filled with a pretty cool tenant soon).  The shipyards site will be expensive to aquire and develop.  Much more expensive than the typical restaurantour or fisherman could afford to setup shop at.
There is indeed a burgeoning ship building/repair industry in my neighborhood now and that is pretty much a legacy type industry.  Not much demand for people my age looking to start up small vessel repair businesses along expensive premium property.

How is this idea(which I have to say has piqued my curiosity) more economically viable(read not HEAVILY subsidized by the city) than say something like this:


http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-may-encore-tampa-a-lesson-for-urban-jacksonville

This is a good topic

[rjp2008]

A shipping container flea market would easily attract people wanting to both buy and sell.