The Paramount End User of Downtown

[thelakelander]

Oh, by-the-way.......there is a large homeless population in Ponte Vedra, living in the woods at the very end of JTB (at A1A) and near the Marsh Landing Target.  You can actually make out the trails to their camps on Google Maps.   Think of them as "beach bums"!! 

I work in an office complex next door to Sleiman's property near Target.  When these guys are rounded up, they are shipped downtown.  I think we would have a much larger outcry and will to do something if they rounded them up downtown and shipped them to Ponte Vedra.

[Downtown Dweller]

Stephen I actually agree with most points in your post, but based on your reply I apparently did not do a good job of getting that across.  I by NO MEANS want to return to the 50's (I wasn't even a twinkling in parent’s eyes in the 50's). My only point was I get tired of what feels like a lecture to step up give more money in taxes, as donations, and also volunteer my time (what time, as I am having to spend a lot of time working to make all this money to give away AND ensure MY family doesn’t become homeless) to do your "part". Where are these people's families? What is their responsibility? I know, I know there are some w/o family but that does not apply to the majority. You are correct in grandma and auntie were left behind (which was a major point to my original post), there are also husband beaters and cheaters, but I digress. I would just like to see someone also lump some of this "guilt" that certain persons try to lump on society back on the families who SHOULD be responsible. If mom doesn't want addicted son living in her house stealing her copper wiring from her air conditioner, why should I want him living in my backyard stealing mine? I am all for doing something, but hey, it is not ALL societies fault and/or responsibility.

[Downtown Dweller]

Absolutely!  And being a downtown resident and having to deal with this on a day to day basis I can appreciate the two sides! It is frustrating for everyone involved, and it is horrible that there are no longer public bathrooms. As a mother to small children I can attest to the lack of facilities, and when little children need to go they NEED to go!

As to the guy in the Springfield video, the employee badge only confirms he is (or was at some point) employed.

[Midway ®]

Finland

Perhaps the most concerted and successful effort to deal with homelessness is in Finland where, after the International Year of Shelter for the Homeless in 1987, the Government devised a multifaceted response to the problem. It included building of social housing, the creation of social welfare and health care services, and setting a target to provide a dwelling of minimum standards for every homeless person. The number of single homeless persons at that time was approximately 18 000. In just 10 years, the number of homeless in Finland was cut in half.

Over 60 per cent of households in Finland live in owner-occupied dwellings. The average housing costs are quite high; this means that low-income groups have difficulties to afford housing which would meet their requirements.

One obvious cause of the high housing costs is that housing production and housing policy are basically dependent on the market. The share of social rental housing is small, only some 15 per cent of the housing stock. Contrary to many other sectors of the welfare society, housing provision mainly relies on the free market. Single persons in particular encounter difficulties in finding reasonably priced rental dwellings.

A new plan to reduce homelessness, proposed in the housing strategy, was presented in February 2001 to the Minister of Housing. It suggested that homelessness would be best reduced through common housing policy measures, but it suggests a number of other measures to reduce homelessness. On the basis of the program the cities in the capital region have signed a contract by which they have decided to increase the supply of dwellings for homeless persons. However, the measures have not been well implemented. The shortages of rental dwellings as well as the shortage of land available for housing production are the main hindrances, especially in Helsinki City.

New kinds of measures are required, too. Homelessness itself is changing. Drug problems are increasing rapidly in Finland. Homelessness becomes more hidden; young homeless persons are not willing to come to shelters. New kinds special support measures are needed. Organisations that have special knowledge on this kind of work, are taking part in the carrying out a programme for reducing homelessness.

According to the figures presented by the municipalities in the yearly housing market survey for the Housing Fund of Finland, there were around 10 000 single homeless persons and about 800 homeless families or other households with more than one person in November 2001.

More than half of the homeless people are in capital region. Numbers or estimates of the extent of homelessness have been gathered on the same basis by the housing authorities since 1986, which means that the development can have been followed up.

Each year, a Finnish member of FEANTSA, No Fixed Abode (V.V.A.) organises a ‘Night for the Homeless’ in several cities and towns across Finland, which usually takes place on 17 October, also the International Day for the Eradication of Poverty. More and more organisations working with the homeless from Finland and other European countries (Czech Republic, Estonia, Sweden, Romania) are participating. The aim is to raise public awareness about the situation of the homeless in Finland as well as across Europe.

http://www.feantsa.org/code/en/country.asp?ID=5&Page=22

[Beloki]

Does anybody know how many homeless people are in Jax?

[vicupstate]

Does anybody know how many homeless people are in Jax?

Diane Gilbert, executive director of Emergency Services and Homeless Coalition of Jacksonville, Inc., told me that they don't expect the numbers from this area's homeless count this year will differ much from last year's count, which was around 17,000. That accounts for a major chunk of the state's homeless population, around 68,000.

The question needs to asked, why does Jax have such a disporportinate share of the state's homeless?  Undoubtedly, it is the highest of any city, if the above figures are correct. ALL of Florida is warm and all cities have interstate access.  What's the difference? 

[thelakelander]

My guess would be because Jacksonville is a gateway to Florida (via bus) and our downtown is a vibrant center of complementing social service activity?  In Florida's other major cities it seems that the social service networks are more spreadout or are located on the edge of downtown cores, as opposed to the center.

[heights unknown]

The homeless problem--whatever "problem" means--simply cannot be solved.  It never has been, never will be...and this dates to ancient times .  There are too many conflicting and interlocking sub-problems and sub-issues to be solved, and truthfully there's not enough benefit to anyone to solve the problem. 

Employers have plenty of people available that don't have the problems of the homeless, so why would they be inclined to to provide jobs to a problematic population?  They want astute college grads, not a muttering mental.  Sorry.

RiverGator was brutal in his analysis, but he's on target.  It's pointless for everyone to wring their hands, point their fingers, and demand that somebody "do something" about the homeless.  As a society, I suppose we should feed them and generally offer shelter so they don't die on the street, which is the "hand-out" philosophy.  But in those ancient times that I mentioned, there were no organized hand-outs.  People died, or survived as the village idiot, as beggars, as thieves, etc.  Same as now. Darwin is at work here, not organized religion or disorganized government.  Darwin always wins.

Oh, by-the-way.......there is a large homeless population in Ponte Vedra, living in the woods at the very end of JTB (at A1A) and near the Marsh Landing Target.  You can actually make out the trails to their camps on Google Maps.   Think of them as "beach bums"!! 

It never has been or never will be because we as a society don't want it to be solved!  The majority of us feel it is not our problem and "those people" chose to be where they are.......until we are homeless and it bites us in the a** then it's a different story and ball game.  Don't ever get homeless my friend; then you'll be whistling Dixie in a whole different tune and in a minor key.

Heights Unknown

[AlexS]

No matter what our philosophy, surely we can agree that people need to take a crap.

If you look closely at the guy in the springfield video, taking a crap in the alleyway.  Guess what you will see.

His workers ID Badge hanging around his neck.

Hes NOT homeless.   But there are NO PUBLIC BATHROOMS because we dont want the homeless using them.

I agree everyone needs to go to the bathroom. But would you want to watch while sitting in your home office working or sitting in a restaurant eating and looking out the window ?
The person in the video did not only take a crap but urinate in the same spot frequently. Perhaps if he would drink less beer at the convenience store he would not have to go that often.
There also is a public bathroom close by (6th and Boulevard at Duval County Health Department). Only about 2 blocks walk, not too much to ask I would think.
Thankfully the owner of the property finally fixed the fence.

[Trace]

Stephendare, Heights, other:

This has been a very good discussion about a constant modern society and  ancient society problem.    As Heights said in response to me:

It never has been or never will be because we as a society don't want it to be solved!  The majority of us feel it is not our problem and "those people" chose to be where they are.......until we are homeless and it bites us in the a** then it's a different story and ball game.  Don't ever get homeless my friend; then you'll be whistling Dixie in a whole different tune and in a minor key.

Exactly!!  It's true.  We, as a society that is busy with our own lives and families and jobs and pursuits, we don't really care if it is solved.   I mean, that's human nature, isn't it.  We--as individuals and as society members--can't take on all the ills of the world.   We (I) would love to snap my fingers like Bruce Almighty and give the homeless what they need to get off the streets (whatever that is, and nobody really seems to know the right answer).  We all have to pick our battles, so we (not me) do the guilty Christian food bank thing, and pass out Thanksgiving dinners and hams at Christmas.....and let them starve the rest of the year, I guess.   

Stephendare--As for those migrations from the history books, that's not really "homeless" using our modern definition.  Wars, pestilence, Mt. Vesuvius.....that's a bit different than the problems of downtown Jax.   But your point about the Industrial Revolution is a good one, and I'll use it:  Before the IR, there was no such thing as "leisure time" for anything other than royals and landed gentry, and little accumulated weath for the vast middle/working class.  Everybody was basically on subsistence living, and when the sun was up you either hunted, fished or farmed.  When the sun went down, you made clothes and weapons and slept.  And there were no income taxes and no welfare state, either.  Thus, no funding of meals and shelters.  You either worked or you starved or you stole.  Or you were a royal.   In fact, the story of the IR coming to England was much of the basis for Charles Dicken's famous stories.    And 150+ years later.....nothing has changed.  It's not going to, ever. That's just the way it is.

I believe that if we took a survey of thousands of homeless people, we'd have thousands of reasons for being homeless, and a thousand remedies.   So, as far as whistling Dixie (which is not even remotely Politically Correct anymore, yaknow!), they'll all whistle a different tune. 

And let's not bring the economy into this debate.  The current economic jitters have to due (mostly) with the fallout from the subprime lending market, and a little from trade balance and overseas labor costs vs. US wages.  The jitters are just that:  jitters.  There is no depression, no recession, and the job market is still vibrant for most skilled people, in spite of what CNN and MSNBC have to say.  And believe me, the subprime market is NOT a matter of discussion amongst our park-bench-sleeping brethern at the Landing as to why they're not buying a new place at the Shipyards.... 

And is the homeless problem really a "problem"?  I know this sounds crazy, but only a small fraction of the population (and I know it's still a LOT of people) are homeless.  And yes, it can happen to anyone, I suppose, but the comment "How many consecutive mistakes do you have to make to become (a typical) homeless." is a good one.   There are a lot of mistakes being made out there, but only a scant fraction of the mistake makers are sleeping on the benches.  I mean, unless you're dealt a really bad hand in life, there's an entrenched  reason that you're out of a home.  And for those very, very few who are normally a part of society and get dealt that nasty hand that puts them on the street usually manage to crawl back to the real world, if I'm not terribly mistaken. 

Anyway, to conclude, I just wanted to float the idea that no matter what your heart says regarding this matter (bleeding heart or a cold heart), it will never, never, never be solved. 

[gatorback]

Anyway, to conclude, I just wanted to float the idea that no matter what your heart says regarding this matter (bleeding heart or a cold heart), it will never, never, never be solved.

Are you sure about that?

[triclops i]

Just a few points:

- there is NEVER a valid reason to film someone takeing a crap. I dont care where, when, how. You just dont do that. If it is a public place, you should yell loudly at them to have some dignity and go elsewhere, but by filming them in the act, you become the asshole, no matter what your intentions are. Period.

- as the manager of popular bum hangout London Bridge for 4 years and current owner of a Springfeild pub, I know my Jacksonville bums. This is not rocket science....

HAVE SOME BALLS!

If someone (anyone) is becoming a problem to a customer, and it is usually a repeat offender (you see the same dudes every day. Thats the differance between a bum and a transient. Transients bum a quarter and you never see them again. Bums try to take advantage of people...), simply run them off! The Imperial had an arsenal of baseball bats and chair legs to run off crackheads! Occasionally, at London Bridge, you are going to have to knuckle up a bum! Its a fact... you can do it, then call the cops, and usually they will get arrested afterwords!

I am no fighter or violent dude, but if someone is interfering with your bussiness again and again then direct action may be the only option. I am not saying just go beating up homeless people by any means, but- the way I see it, if they keep violeting me or the place I am running then they are choosing to become my enemy.

Be direct. Look them in the eyes. Wave a big stick oround. Act crazier than they are. Act like you are calling the cops- they will leave if you really want them to! They have to! This is not a huge problem, just simply run the sorry sacks off! And if they are not bothering anyone, then let them be. But once a line is crossed, stand firm... they will go away, trust me.

CLOPS

[Trace]

Are you sure about that?

Yes, gator, I'm quite sure about that.  100 percent sure.  We can put men on the moon, but we'll NEVER solve the homeless problem that is pervasive in every big and medium city in the world (unless it's cold, but Minneapolis has plenty of street homeless--go figure!)  But by the tone of your comment, you seem to think otherwise, perhaps?   

What is your solution, pray tell.  In fact, just give us a partial solution to reduce the problem by one-half!  Something other than "tax the rich and give it to the homeless and disenfranchised", please.   No "Les Miserables" fantasy about revolution in the streets, either.  We Ponte Vedrans have better guns than the homeless.....   

Just like you can NEVER legislate morality problems out of existence (drugs, prostitution, murder), you can't legislate the homeless off the streets. 

So, let's work at something that's more possible, like getting Israel and Iran to work together for world peace.

[heights unknown]

Stephendare, Heights, other:

And is the homeless problem really a "problem"?  I know this sounds crazy, but only a small fraction of the population (and I know it's still a LOT of people) are homeless.  And yes, it can happen to anyone, I suppose, but the comment "How many consecutive mistakes do you have to make to become (a typical) homeless." is a good one.   There are a lot of mistakes being made out there, but only a scant fraction of the mistake makers are sleeping on the benches.  I mean, unless you're dealt a really bad hand in life, there's an entrenched  reason that you're out of a home.  And for those very, very few who are normally a part of society and get dealt that nasty hand that puts them on the street usually manage to crawl back to the real world, if I'm not terribly mistaken. 

I guess it is a problem because everyone complains about the homeless to the Police, Sheriff, and City Government, telling them to do something with those worthless, smelly, no good people; so I guess yes, it is a problem.  It doesn't matter whether it is only a small fraction of the population, society yearns for perfection (which we'll never have in this life), and part of that perfection is getting rid of eye sores, and that is how many people feel about the homeless.

Well, if you complain, and if you want the homeless either gone or normal like the rest of us, then the smart thing to do, in my mind and in my opinion is to help them; find out what their problem is, how they got to where they are, what caused them to end up in "skid row" so to speak, and are they really willing to admit that they have a problem, need help, and willing to do whatever it takes to change and return back as productive, viable members of society.  This is the direction we need to go; and social service agencies cannot do it alone.  Help will be needed from the local governments and the citizens.

The law of the universe is firm; what goes around comes around.  If we treat people bad, no matter if they're rich, poor, or whatever, then bad will eventuallly come back around to us.  We think we're safe and sound in our nice little bubbles, but the alarms are sounding loud and clear that pretty soon, most of us will probably be roaming the streets, dirty, with no home, and trying to figure out where to get the next meal; we all had better think real carefully about how we treat each other.

I don't mean to preach, but what I said in the last paragraph is true.  The homeless may be a nuisance, eyesores, whatever you want to call them, but the reason why they "hang around" is because they are hoping that someone helps them with their problem.  Most of them don't honestly know where to turn.  It's fine to have somewhere to eat everyday, clothes every once in a while, and even temporary shelter now and then, but take it from someone who knows, they yearn for a nice job, apartment, house, car, a vacation every now and then, the things that most of us do almost year in and year out. 

It appears no one really read my first post indepth; the majority of the homeless, I will say about 90%, are palgued with social problems such as drug abuse, alcholism, mental illness, disabilities or handicaps, etc., and yes there are those that are homeless out of pure stupidity or negligence.  Regardless of how they got homeless, rather than complain and shove them in the woods or on the outskirts of town like they don't exist, we should have some type of system, around the nation and within each town city and village, with the social service agencies working together at the helm, to address and help to cure/eliminate the problems that attribute to their homelessness.  They are not going away people.  The more we try to make them go away or treat them adversely, the more it will come back to haunt us in some way to remind us we are doing wrong.

Lastly, our country, and States, Cities, etc. throw away billions and even trillions annually on stupid, questionable, and off the chain stuff, issues and items that makes absolutely no sense.  It makes sense to me to have some type of system in place for when people really truly "lose their ass," so to speak and become homeless, regardless of the reason.  And for the ones that are homeless because of legal problems or crime, they should be put in jail yes, but also have something within the penal system to address whatever crimes or problems that they may have; most of these type people are dead beat dads, tax evaders, etc.

Not trying to hold to hold the homeless by the hand...wait a minute, yes I am; because if we don't, we'll have more and more homeless people on the street as the economy gets worse and our financial situation goes down the tube.  Just to remind everyone, more and more people are becoming unemployed, losing their homes, and are becoming homeless.

Hope y'all are having a nice week!  Keep up the good work in this great forum!

Heights Unknown

[Trace]

Heights:

Good points, all.  As for the Universal Law (goes around/come around), I don't think anyone is advocating doing anything BAD to the homeless, unless they're violent beggars, of course.  [[side note--I worked for 20 years in downtown DC, and I've seen my share of bums, homeless, etc.]]  And I think most of us wish there was something GOOD to do for them, but.......nobody has ever, ever, ever had a viable solution to solving the current problem (nationwide) and preventing the constant reocurrance.  So, society helps when it can, but there is no solving the problem.  I wish there were.  And like I said to "gatorback", don't give me pie-in-the-sky, what-if solutions, like "if everyone gave 5 dollars....." or something like that.  Those are stop-gap measures, handouts.   What is the solution to eliminate the root of the problem forever---and a solution that can actually be implemented. Implemented is the key word here.

Stephendare:

Uhh....I explain the plight of the confederates after the war thusly:  They were defeated in war, period.   To the victor goes the spoils, the losers get nothing.  And these losers were in rebellion against their country....so they're lucky they didn't ALL swing from the gallows, quite frankly.   And, the South was poor to begin with, compared to the industrialized North, and war is expensive!  Sucession was a dumb idea from a strategic standpoint...they didn't stand a chance.  Few factories, no weapons manufacturing, no trains, less people.....a really dumb way to start a war.    As for the shantytowns....if you're living in a shantytown, you're not homeless.  You're just dirt-poor. There IS a difference. 

As for history and sanitized lenses.....you're absolutely right.   I often ask people (who are complaining about present day problems) what they consider to be "the good old days".  First it's the 60s, but I point out race riots.  Then it's the 50's, and I point out no cure for polio and everyone smoked (or whatever), and the the 40's (world war!), then it's the 20s (prohibition, gangsters, facism), then it's the 1890s, then it's....cave man days!  My point is that there were never "good old days", and the golden glow of bygone years is only because people do indeed look at history through rose colored (and sanitized) glasses. 

For just one moment, I want everyone to consider that THESE are the good old days.  Right now.  Times are good...much better than when the Black Plague was having a go at all of Europe.....

So, I'll step out of this dialogue.  Again, a very good discussion by all, and I hope someone solves the homeless problem.  But in 10, 20, 30 years, downtown Jax will still have the same problem.  I'm sure of it.