Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[thelakelander]

CS Foltz, the convention center falls in the same category as roads, mass transit, parks, schools and libraries.  Whatever the subsidy is, I bet its less than the others.  The key for Jacksonville is to find ways to get the best utilization out of these quality of life offerings.

[tufsu1]

I'll add on Lake...keep in mind CS that a successful convention center creates significant spin-off revenue in the form of hotels, restaurants, etc....all of which leads to increased local tax revenues.

also note that events booked at the center pay a fee...most convention centers require subsidies for when they aren't booked or underbooked....which is why right-sizing any new center in Jax. is so important.

[Timkin]

* Raises hand... Can I just ask a question?  Um.. how many bookings have been declined or did not happen because of the size of existing Convention Center?  I would be curious to see that list as well.. Who markets Prime Osborn?   I'm not being sarcastic about any of these questions, I simply do not know these things and I would like to.   We apparently need a Riverfront Convention Center..fine .. I get that.  but what did we lose out on over say...the last 10 years because we did not have a large enough Center?   I am certainly pro-making Jacksonville a vibrant City again.... I just simply happen to be one of those apparently few , and growing of the group that would like to see some resemblance of our Historic Fabric (and maybe some future structures with a "Retro" look) put to use for some of these things.   Personally I never understood why the Convention Center was put where it was, but it wasn't my call then. It is my estimation however that had that NOT happened, the Train Terminal would probably not be there any longer , either.   So now lets build a new center , on the riverfront ,no less and pray we can keep the thing booked.. What is the proposal for the existing convention center when the new one becomes reality? Would that then be utilized as part of the Train Station or JTA or what?

[thelakelander]

* Raises hand... Can I just ask a question?  Um.. how many bookings have been declined or did not happen because of the size of existing Convention Center?  I would be curious to see that list as well..

Ultimately, this is a question best answered by SMG Jacksonville or the CVB.

Who markets Prime Osborn?

SMG - http://www.jaxevents.com/aboutsmg.php

I'm not being sarcastic about any of these questions, I simply do not know these things and I would like to.   We apparently need a Riverfront Convention Center..fine .. I get that.

I would not say we "need" a "riverfront" convention center.  I'd say if you want to convert the Prime Osborn back into a transportation center and not run off additional conventions, trade shows and businesses, you'll need a replacement facility.  If you're going to replace the facility, it should be located adjacent complementing uses and properly sized for better utilization and connectivity purposes.

but what did we lose out on over say...the last 10 years because we did not have a large enough Center?

Again, this is a question best served for SMG or the CVB.  However, from this discussion we know that we have lost nearly $140 million from groups that left from 2006 to 2008.

"Business groups that had planned to hold conventions at the center in 2007 but decided to go to another market equated to a loss of $48.4 million based on the room-nights they would have generated for the city, according to the Jacksonville & the Beaches Convention and Visitors Bureau. The city has lost nearly $140 million from groups that have left from 2006 to 2008.

Two that relocated in 2009 were the Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and the State Cheer & Dance Championship.

"The CVB, which helps bring larger regional, state and national conventions that generate room-nights, most recently lost two of its larger clients for 2009. After 10 years of holding annual events at the Prime Osborn, the state's Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and The State Cheer & Dance Championships of Florida are moving to Daytona Beach, taking $3 million in economic impact.

The Car & Truck Show has also stated that the obsolete Prime Osborn facility is not large enough to facilitate a larger event.

Opportunities for expanding events targeted at this market, such as the Jacksonville Spring Home & Patio Show and the Jacksonville International Car & Truck Show, are also limited. Reyes said associations that produce such events generate 60 percent to 70 percent of their revenue from them.

The Car & Truck Show, produced by event marketer Paragon Group Inc. of Massachusetts, has been at the Prime Osborn for nine years. For the past two years vehicles were placed on the grass lot in front of the Prime Osborn, in the parking lot and in lobbies. The Prime Osborn's doorways were changed to bring more vehicles to the lower rooms, said Barbara Pudney, vice president and show producer at Paragon.

Pudney said changing the doorways helped accommodate the Car & Truck Show's recent growth but an expanded Prime Osborn would facilitate an even bigger and better event.

source: http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html?jst=pn_pn_lk

If you've stepped foot in a convention center in one of our peer cities, common sense would show that we have a subpar center.

1. It's outdated.

2. It's too small.

3. There is no attached convention center sized hotel.

4. There are no complementing uses (entertainment, dining, retail, etc.) within walking distance.

Conventions and trade shows are leaving because of these issues.  Jacksonville won't be vibrant by continuing to run off more economic generators.

I am certainly pro-making Jacksonville a vibrant City again.... I just simply happen to be one of those apparently few , and growing of the group that would like to see some resemblance of our Historic Fabric (and maybe some future structures with a "Retro" look) put to use for some of these things.

I'm in favor of historic preservation as well.  However, I fail to see what it has to do with a convention facility.  Now let me ask you a question.  Where in Jacksonville do we have a historic building large enough to house a convention center and still be adjacent to complementing uses?  The only facility I can think of is the old Ford Plant but it's too isolated and has many of the same problems that plague the Prime Osborn site.

Personally I never understood why the Convention Center was put where it was, but it wasn't my call then. It is my estimation however that had that NOT happened, the Train Terminal would probably not be there any longer , either.  

I wasn't in Jax back then but from my understanding, the placement of the convention center at the old train station saved it from demolition.  Unfortunately, the city subsidized a hotel a mile down the street instead of right next to it and torn the neighborhood down that surrounded it, thus killing opportunities for complementing uses to open within walking distance.

So now lets build a new center , on the riverfront ,no less and pray we can keep the thing booked..

What would suggest that we can't keep a decent mixed-use center booked and filled with activity?  Just the preservation of existing conventions and trade shows would be a huge boost to the city if located on a site that promotes connectivity and better utilization.  For example, imagine if the Florida Coastal Law School would have been constructed on a part of the new county courthouse site.  Do you not think that would have been a boost for businesses in the Northbank?

What is the proposal for the existing convention center when the new one becomes reality? What is the proposal for the existing convention center when the new one becomes reality? Would that then be utilized as part of the Train Station or JTA or what?

If we can get the convention center out of the terminal, the proposal has always been to convert it back to its original use......a transportation center.

Here is a link to an article we ran on this a few months back: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-sep-a-vision-for-transit-in-jacksonville


Current JTA Transportation Center plan.  Building the transportation center around the Prime Osborn creates a sprawled out multimodal center (bad) and limits the convention center's potential (bad).


MJ Transportation Center concept.  If we can get the convention center out of the way, we have an opportunity to create a compact multimodal center with room for adjacent transit oriented development opportunities (good).

[thelakelander]

Some interesting statistics from a 2007 discussion back during our MetJax days.

Here's an update on the impact of the meetings & convention groups arriving in Jacksonville this year...

As of February 6, the CVB has booked 150 groups scheduled to arrive in Jacksonville between January 1 and December 31, 2007

Those groups will result in 95,713 room nights and an estimated economic impact of $48.7 million.

For 95 of those groups, this will be their first time coming to Jacksonville... exposing thousands of newcomers to our city.

The newcomers represent 59,163 room nights and an estimated economic impact of $30.1 million

A "room night," for those unfamiliar with the term, is the standard measure of impact for the tourism industry. One hotel room booked for one night = one room night. One hotel room booked for a four-night stay = four room nights, etc. Why so important? Why measure a room night instead of the number of people traveling to town? Because for the hotel revenue generated by each room night booked in Duval County, the city receives 6 cents on the dollar in bed tax collection - one-third of which pays the debt on ALLTEL (oops - Jacksonville Municipal) Stadium, one-third pays the debt on the Prime Osborn and one-third is reinvested in tourism promotion through the Tourist Development Council. So the more room nights booked... the more outside tax dollars we generate for the city.

As another point of reference... a leisure traveler spends, on average, $127 per day in Jacksonville. A convention delegate? $290 per day on restaurants, retail, hotel and transportation - more than doubling the bottom line benefit for our local businesses.

http://www.metjax.com/forums/showpost.php?p=64789&postcount=42

How does it help this city and downtown to completely kick the opportunity to host conventions and trade shows to the curb?

[Timkin]

You answered many of my questions, Lake.  I do not have an answer for you at this point regarding a Historic Building but I definitely will try to find that and get back to you with an answer.  There may not be one. I would have to look for that.  You are correct about the FMC Assy Plant. Its location hurts it.  So does Annie Lytle's ,apparently (and its lack of available land space for expansion.)

[TheProfessor]

I think light rail should be invested in before a convention center.  I think Orlando will always win out on the convention front.

[ralpho37]

In my opinion, a new convention center is the single most important issue this city faces.  Many of these budget problems and cutbacks that are going on now could be alleviated if the city gained more money from bed taxes.  A city the caliber of Jacksonville deserves something better than the current "closest space" we call our convention center.  Take a trip to any other major city in this country and you will find a convention center pumping life into it.  Jacksonville has ignored the need for a new convention center for far too long, and now many of the ill effects are starting to show.  Until we show more of a concern for getting national attention in the form of conventions and other large events, Jacksonville will greatly struggle to be a real player in the national scene in almost every way.

[thelakelander]

I think light rail should be invested in before a convention center.  I think Orlando will always win out on the convention front.

A new convention center/replacement has nothing to do with Orlando.  The conventions they host are typically much larger than those in our market.  If we are to convert the terminal back into a transporation center, we're going to have to find a solution to our convention center issue.  Considering funding would most likely come from different sources, we should be able to find a way to move forward with improving both issues.

[Jaxson]

I agree with previous posters that the Prime Osborn Convention Center, in spite of its failure to be a success in its own right, helped the Jacksonville Terminal to live to see another day.  That said, the convention space that we have now is woefully inadequate.  I hope that the convention center issue is something that we bring up in the upcoming mayoral elections...  We need a new mayor with a vision; this includes a vision for a convention center that better serves our needs and our visitors.

[Timkin]

I do not know that I can agree that this is a #1 issue.  but I do see the need for a larger facility now

[simms3]

I only read 4 pages of comments, but I feel I should chime in, too.  There is a middle ground here.  I agree wholeheartedly with Stephen that we have been wasting time and money trying to be a convention city, and we should not spend another dime doing so.  That being said, we should still have a convention center fit for our city and the Hyatt will not do it alone.  An "exhibition hall" connected to the Hyatt and most likely run by a separate entity would do just fine.  We need at least 150,000 SF of contiguous space, but we don't need much more than that, and the Hyatt already has sufficient space for smaller groups.  The Hyatt is also a large enough hotel to host decently sized conventions and smaller conventions together.

I know we have already discussed this whole thing at length, and I originally thought we were all on the same page of bringing a medium sized center to the courthouse site.  I think the real question is what's the city's priority, budget wise.  The convention center may not be it for the next administration.  Multi-modal transportation hub may not be it, either, and is potentially more expensive.  In this economy, I highly doubt both can be done in a single time frame.

2 last things to note: the convention business is DYING everywhere.  Chicago, NYC, San Diego, etc have all seen convention business drop by large numbers (replaced by some cities, but an overall drop all across the board).  These cities all have really large centers with well over a million SF.  Jax would do with just a couple hundred thousand SF.

We have better weather than most convention cities, barring SoCal, and we have water and palm trees.  I think we would do well, and people would enjoy coming down for conventions, IF we placed a center correctly, provided adjacent hotel rooms, provided public space like the Riverwalk, and provided connectivity to entertainment.  In this mold, the courthouse site works.

A convention center is also a good thing for the corporate sector, which is lagging in Jax, especially downtown right now.  Companies locate where people are locating, and people are locating to places they like.  Convention centers provide publicity for cities, and bring people in.  Jax is already growing fairly steadily (before 2008), all we need is better publicity.  The two combined could help attract more companies to locate in Jax, and hopefully downtown.  And no, I am not talking about F500 companies, per se, but smaller companies that have room to grow and expand (and can move more easily).

[Jaxson]

I do not know that I can agree that this is a #1 issue.  but I do see the need for a larger facility now

I do not think that a convention center is our number one aim, but it should be part of our plans for the future.  I think it is about time that we had a mayor who could inspire us and our city to be greater.  I do not believe that the recession excuses us from having such leaders.  In the depths of the Great Depression, Mayor La Guardia (I am not too sure about Robert Moses' contributions, though) helped NYC through very hard times.  The next mayor should be leading the charge with a visible effort to put our city on the map.  I do not believe that our current mayor has the moxie.

[Ocklawaha]

In case you didn't notice, trains are back! With a little imagination this scene could be OUR OWN!

As one of the resident transportation guys, and maybe our only railroad planner, I'd guarantee you that Jacksonville doesn't have to fight for HUB status for Amtrak, HSR or any other rail project, we will always win that be default. God blessed us with the location and Mister's Plant, Flagler and Williams did the rest.  We are the undisputed King of the rail's in Florida, and we see more cargo then most other major Southern cities. Because those rail lines ALL pass through Jax to reach the rest of the state we have a captive customer situation. Sadly we have ignored it so long that the State thinks it can change geography by sending a train from Orlando to Tampa or Miami. This might work but it will be a minimal situation at best, meanwhile as the markets to the north and west demand better rail connections (read that improved track and fast Amtrak trains) guess which is the only city in Florida that can provide any of the needed station facilities, and junction's to pull it off? DUH? YEAH! JACKSONVILLE!

100% of the problem with the "Prime Osbourne" is that it sits on what is rightly the railroad terminal of the Southeastern USA! Don't think so? Until the Bush/Clinton cuts in Amtrak, we still fielded 12 passenger trains daily in and out of Jacksonville, some of these split up forming two trains south of our city. While we were posting these impressive numbers, Memphis had 2, Atlanta 2, Charlotte 4, Nashville 0, Louisville 2, Little Rock 2, Dallas 2, Houston 2 tri weekly, New Orleans 8, Birmingham 2, Mobile 2 tri weekly...  Starting to see my point??

WE MUST GET OUR STATION UP AND RUNNING DOWNTOWN in time to meet the new Amtrak trains down the Florida East Coast. Amtrak wants to split and SERVICE all trains in JACKSONVILLE AGAIN! What's in it for us?
According to the GAO For fiscal years 2002 through 2004, Amtrak's food and beverage expenses were about $487 million. Hey, that's before anyone washed the uniforms, table cloths, or set up the plates, cups, saucers, or fueled the train, or ordered the table flowers, or washed the cars, or ?? See what I mean??


Sure looks like home!

The mantra is "The Prime Must Go!" close it, move it, sell it to the circus, stick it under a bridge, send it to the fairground's, but whatever we do, get it the hell out of JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL!


This is about all we need to make our station soar, interestingly this train in this photo is a little streamliner from San Francisco to Monterrey called the "Del Monte", think for a moment, G A I N E S V I L L E !  T A L L A H A S S E E !

After we have taken out the convention center, let's reopen the mother of all railroad stations South of Washington DC!

OCKLAWAHA

[Timkin]

* Salutes Ocklawaha !  No Argument here.   I definitely DO NOT want to see that Terminal Demolished.  It is way too beautiful.