Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[thelakelander]

I am not against a Convention Center as long as its done right----which means building it at the municipal stadium and connecting it to the Veterans Colliseum.

I know you found a link that you're using for this idea but there are several successful convention centers not attached to football stadiums.  Being adjacent to entertainment, restaurants and a convention center sized hotel should be much higher priorities for the creation of a successful center in Jacksonville.

[Timkin]

Just out of curiosity , what POTENTIAL Events Could be booked on a regular basis ,assuming we went with a new Convention Center of the proposed size you are speaking of, Lake ?

[thelakelander]

All I am getting at is the Convention Center in my humble opinion is not on a top 10 list ..or top 5 list or even top 3 list.   I never LIKED that it was placed where it was placed, but had it not been the Jacksonville Terminal would probably have followed every other beautiful structure that is no longer in our Urban Core....to a landfill.    NOW  and maybe not even 10 years from now is the time to be thinking about a convention center. Jeez.. We cannot even dream up a plan to save a 2 Story Fire Station  which is the only (that I know of ) remaining landmark of Brooklyn left on Riverside Ave, but lets GET THAT COURTHOUSE UP AND RUNNING!  We no more needed that Courthouse (at this juncture )  than we need a new Convention Center RIGHT NOW.  Lets tear down the old Courthouse ( I have no objection there...Im not sure why it was ever placed there to begin with) and lets build a new bigger Convention Center, when we cannot even keep the existing one busy.  I understand some of the statistics.  Clay County, one of the most rapid-growing counties in the country has had only two (to my knowledge) Courthouse facilities in the past Century... How many has Jacksonville now had , including the one going up now?   Where theres a will theres a way, and Lake, I know you know what you're talking about ..  I dont think this convention center is going to be the Messiah , so to speak of recreating our Urban Core.   In this economy I do not see how ANY Convention Center anywhere, let alone Jacksonville, is doing that great.

Who ever said anything about a list of priorities or what to do or not in this economy.  Long term planning should not be subject to short term economic cycles.  My view is that we have a need and we should plan for that need.  Actual construction may not happen in 10 years but you need to establish a long term vision and make sure everything you invest in gets you to that long term goal.

[thelakelander]

Just out of curiosity , what POTENTIAL Events Could be booked on a regular basis ,assuming we went with a new Convention Center of the proposed size you are speaking of, Lake ?

Off the top of my head, the ones currently leaving (a few have been mentioned in the last page of this thread).  Trade shows.  In addition, a larger facility has the ability to host more smaller events at the same time.  Just as important, a well placed facility brings more foot traffic and money to nearby complementing businesses.  In a city that needs urban connectivity, this may be the most important aspect of all.

[thelakelander]

Whatever research we (or the city) might have done that leads to the conclusion that a stand alone convention center in downtown jacksonville unaccompanied by major policy shifts is flawed.

Correct.  A stand along convention center is a bad idea.

Any coordinating committee that wants to put on a large event here can put together the spaces available.  Theresa Price managed to do it with the Jazz Festival.

Not every event has to be held in Jacksonville.  Like corporations, events can pick up and relocate if their current location isn't desirable.  If you're city does not have the proper facilities, GM isn't going to call Theresa Price to put together 20 small spaces all over Jacksonville for their trade show.  Instead, they would just have it in a city like Charlotte or Indianapolis, that has the facilities needed.  

The only way that I would personally support this pipe dream is if it were co-located at the Municipal Stadium and A Phillip Randolph were developed as an entertainment district.

A. Philip Randolph, as an entertainment district, is more of a pipe dream than building a convention center next to the Hyatt.

[tufsu1]

having just chaired a professional organization's state conference at the Hyatt last year, I can tell you we used all of the prime meeting/exhibit space on the second floor....and we only had about 800 attendees (there was probably room for about 1,000)...there is also the secondary space in the old suditorium spae that is attached....it can handle the same amount of people, but is not ideal as ceiling heights are ow.

Now, the same professional organization hosts a national conference every year....with about 5,000 people attending....there is no way the Hyatt could do that...in fact, the organziation has been meeting exclusively in convention centers since 2004.

Finally, what about trade shows....like tha car show, boat show, Philadelpia flower show (big thing there), fashion shows, mercantile shows, etc?

Bottom line...no convention center turns a profit on its own (just like transit)...but it generates lots of spinoff revenue...I saw that firsthand when Philly relocated their convention center from near PENN to the heart of Center City in the 90's....new hotels, restaurants, and nightspots sprung up.

Now we're never going to compete size-wise with convention facilities in Chicago, NYC, Orlando, or Vegsa and we shouldn't want to...but a facility of around 200,000-300,000 square feet (similar to Tampa) that can host medium size shows should be built!

[thelakelander]

I am not against a Convention Center as long as its done right----which means building it at the municipal stadium and connecting it to the Veterans Colliseum.

I know you found a link that you're using for this idea but there are several successful convention centers not attached to football stadiums.  Being adjacent to entertainment, restaurants and a convention center sized hotel should be much higher priorities for the creation of a successful center in Jacksonville.

There is no evidence to support this statement, Lake.  Considering that your own links quote hotel managers from Baymeadows especially.

There is a lot of evidence.  DT Jax has a bad model and is dead.  Several other peer cities who have well integrated convention facilities also have successful complementing businesses adjacent to them.  That synery equals success.  Regarding Baymeadows, although suburban, it is lined with restaurants and businesses.  Major conventions and events also have the ability to generate business for non-attached hotels as well (remember the super bowl?).

Convention Centers unfortunately bring with them a built in schedule of non use.  Like the idea of an administrative district which closes at 6pm, the uneven volume associated with a Convention Center is too unpredictable for businesses to open confidently.  It would be unhealthy to locate a stand alone use for this purpose in the actual core along the riverfront.  It would simply turn out the way that the TUPAC does, busy while scheduled but useless otherwise.

It doesn't have to be dead if you don't design it to be dead.  The best urban convention center is an interactive one that generates around the clock use.  In other words, make it mixed use.  Exhibition hall/meeting rooms on upper levels (or setback from street edge), retail/cultural uses at street level.

[Jaxson]

@thelakelander --- i like the above illustration.  well done.

[thelakelander]

Thanks, it was from a story we did back in 2006 on the relocation and the development of a mixed-use convention center.  Jason did the Google Earth renderings.

[Fallen Buckeye]

I love the design idea from above. And by all means if all parties with a hand in this game were to plan it out, then Prime Obsorne could be transitioned from Convention Center to Tranist Center while a better Convention Center were being built in the present courthouse location. I love the mixed use idea too and I thought someone had posted that Nashville's Convention was built in this way.

The city benifits because it supports the businesses present and those on their way such as the Bank Hotel. I liken the whole situation to building a bathroom. Right now we have a lot of pieces: sink, tub, toilet. But our water and sewer lines were built in our living room, so when we go to use all this stuff we're left with crap. We have a chance to put those essential things back where they belong so everything can work as it should.

[thelakelander]

This still provides no evidence that links a successful convention center to any of the above.

Depends on what you consider to be a successful convention center.  I've already stated that a successful center to me is one that generates foot traffic and brings additional business and customers to the surrounding area.  A good example, would be San Diego's Convention Center.  It has served as a major anchor for the redevelopment of their downtown and the Gaslamp District.

There is a bar to jump over in order to succeed at this game, and what we presently have in inventory isnt enough.  Colocating a convention center at the Veterans Memorial piggybacks the investment and places it next to the Baseball Stadium as well as the Municipal Stadium.  City Hall Pub is already over there and it is doing quite well.  The establishment of A Phillip Randolph as a commercial strip is hardly a pipe dream as the success of the CHP is proof.  It just requires a few solid small businesses to jump start it.

Building a convention center near next to the stadium would be just as bad as leaving it at the Prime Osborn.  A successful convention center needs a convention center hotel and complementing uses.  Downtown Jacksonville already has these things.  We just had a discussion on the importance of connectivity this past Monday at Chicago Pizza.  A well designed convention center at the courthouse site brings synergy and pedestrian connectivity to a location that is already heavily subsidized (Hyatt, Bay Street Town Center, etc.) by the city.  Why recreate the wheel and encourage the need for more subsidizing of private businesses to compete with existing businesses that we're already subsidizing?  

Colocating a new convention center in this location and extending either skyway or streetcar service to this area would give you greater bang for the buck, kill a few birds with one stone by extending rapid transit from the Amtrak Station to the Sports District, and present the least amount of risk to the downtown because it colocates another partially used space with other partially used venues.  It can only add to the equation over there.

This would be a huge un-needed risk by transforming a $100 million project into a $1 billion because you would have to build an extra mile of mass transit and subsidize new complementing development to compete against existing complementing development.  The simple solution is the courthouse site because the only thing you would need to invest in would be the convention center itself.

However, tearing down very busy structures like the old city hall and permanently programming a partial use facility at that location would replace guaranteed daytime activity with uncertain partial activity, which is a net loss to the northbank core.

Its not a net loss because the courthouse isn't even open at night and on the weekends.  A mixed use convention center would bring people to that area around the clock.  

Building a working model from the successful models of other cities at the Courthouse location would also mean adding another performance venue at the location or another sports related facility.

You don't need a performance or another sports venue to have a successful convention center.  You have to design for the needs of your environment.

[Jaxson]

the lakelander has a good point about san diego and its gaslamp district.  i was there last year for a convention and i liked the location of the convention center relative to the surrounding lodging and retail.  there was also nearby mass transit that i used to get around the area.

[Jaxson]

i also want to add that larger conventions need multiple hotels for their various delegations.  and those hotels often need meeting space for the various delegations if they are conducting caucuses and meetings in their own respective capacities.

[thelakelander]

City Hall Pub is already over there and it is doing quite well.  The establishment of A Phillip Randolph as a commercial strip is hardly a pipe dream as the success of the CHP is proof.  It just requires a few solid small businesses to jump start it.

Pipe dream because a district needs buildings.  Unfortunately, most along A Philip Randolph have been torn down and the city did not put retail space in the two adjacent parking garages.  As you know, it's much more feasible to open up a restaurant or bar when you don't have to worry about purchasing the land and constructing the building to house your establishment.  Until someone comes along and reconstructs a few missing blocks of buildings, it's a long shot.

[thelakelander]

I've already stated that a successful center to me is one that generates foot traffic and brings additional business and customers to the surrounding area.  A good example, would be San Diego's Convention Center.  It has served as a major anchor for the redevelopment of their downtown and the Gaslamp District.

It doesn't have to be dead if you don't design it to be dead.  The best urban convention center is an interactive one that generates around the clock use.  In other words, make it mixed use.  Exhibition hall/meeting rooms on upper levels (or setback from street edge), retail/cultural uses at street level.