Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[thelakelander]

Meh.  Not another building needs to be torn down or another million dollars needs to be spent on this worthless project.

I stand by the claim that a new convention center is not a worthless project and that no building worth saving (I don't think the courthouse on Bay Street is worth preserving when the new one is completed) needs to be torn down.

In the future we might need one, but at the present time, the convention facilities of the Hyatt will serve us well for another generation.

We needed one yesterday.  You're also factually incorrect that the Hyatt is well positioned to serve us for another generation.  The Hyatt's largest space is less than 28,000 square feet.  

see floor plan here: http://www.jacksonville.hyatt.com/hyatt/hotels/events/meetings/index.jsp;jsessionid=89C97789E8927E4C482286F5E03D08E9.atg05-prd-atg1

If the Hyatt were well positioned, steady stream of businesses, trade shows and conventions would not be leaving downtown just as fast as the corporate offices are.

Jacksonville Business Journal - April 20, 2007
by Rachel Witkowski Staff Writer

JACKSONVILLE -- The Prime F. Osborn III Convention Center's size and distance from a hotel has cost the city's economy more than $48 million this year.

Business groups that had planned to hold conventions at the center in 2007 but decided to go to another market equated to a loss of $48.4 million based on the room-nights they would have generated for the city, according to the Jacksonville & the Beaches Convention and Visitors Bureau. The city has lost nearly $140 million from groups that have left from 2006 to 2008.[/color]

The 78,500 square feet of exhibit space at the Prime Osborn is limiting its ability to attract state and national conventions while local events' potential to make money is also being constrained by the building's size.

The city and the CVB, through the convention center task force, are looking into expanding the Prime Osborn or building a new convention center. The task force will present a final report later this year, but meanwhile the numbers are staggering.

The CVB, which helps bring larger regional, state and national conventions that generate room-nights, most recently lost two of its larger clients for 2009. After 10 years of holding annual events at the Prime Osborn, the state's Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and The State Cheer & Dance Championships of Florida are moving to Daytona Beach, taking $3 million in economic impact.

The Florida Fire Chiefs' Association said it needed 100,000 more square feet to clear exhibits from the lobby areas, according to information provided by the CVB. It uses 117,300 square feet at the Prime Osborn.

Gainesville-based American Championships, which operates State Cheer & Dance, said it needed an additional 40,000 square feet to expand the event and have more warm-up space.

The Prime Osborn's size and the cost to transport event attendees to the nearest hotels were the primary reasons for lost business, said Shirley Smith, CVB's vice president of sales.[/color]

Both conventions will host their events at Daytona's Ocean Center in 2009, the same year it will open as an expanded convention center with 452,491 square feet of space, nearly double its existing size. The center is offering incentives and promotions for businesses that bring events to Ocean Center within the first year of its reopening, Smith said.

The State Cheer & Dance had reached a point where it was trying to book during Martin Luther King Jr. Day weekend because it would have needed to extend its event by a day to compensate for space limitations, she said.

The CVB has enough time to replace the events with other business but it will be difficult since both occurred at the beginning of the year.

"It's easier to keep a customer than it is to create a customer," said John Reyes, president and CEO of the CVB.

Limited space also leads to less availability. Event coordinators, on average, must plan on taking two days to move in and a day to move out, Reyes said. By contrast, the Prime Osborn could house two events simultaneously if its exhibit space was expanded to 280,000 square feet, which represents 85 percent of the convention center market nationally.[/color]

Opportunities for expanding events targeted at this market, such as the Jacksonville Spring Home & Patio Show and the Jacksonville International Car & Truck Show, are also limited. Reyes said associations that produce such events generate 60 percent to 70 percent of their revenue from them.

The Car & Truck Show, produced by event marketer Paragon Group Inc. of Massachusetts, has been at the Prime Osborn for nine years. For the past two years vehicles were placed on the grass lot in front of the Prime Osborn, in the parking lot and in lobbies. The Prime Osborn's doorways were changed to bring more vehicles to the lower rooms, said Barbara Pudney, vice president and show producer at Paragon.

Pudney said changing the doorways helped accommodate the Car & Truck Show's recent growth but an expanded Prime Osborn would facilitate an even bigger and better event.

Reyes said if the city creates a new or expanded convention center, it could bring back lost business. "But you can't bring it back if you don't have something to offer."

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html

I for one would like to keep as many people and money flowing into downtown.  An expanded convention center (along with better mass transit, retail, historic preservation, etc.) follows that goal.  Given up and becoming more of a hickville does just the opposite on all levels.

In looking at the business structures of the other successful city centers, we would be well advised to convert the Prime Osborn into a multi modal transportation center with a hotel/housing center built into the actual structure (perhaps after the same model of the proposed Bank Hotel by Atkins and Company.

This is not an either/or argument.  The terminal needs to be a transportation center and a larger convention facility is needed.  Here are a few links to our past articles on these issues for those who are evidently not familiar with the evolution of this discussion:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jan-peytons-struggles-the-convention-center

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-sep-a-vision-for-transit-in-jacksonville

You will find that the vast majority of MJ posters believe that the convention center should be relocated from the Prime Osborn and that the Prime Osborn should be converted back into a transportation center.  It would also be foolish to subsidize another hotel at the terminal when we can't even support the ones we have now and we're discussing an idea (no convention center) to take more of their business away.  So, transportation center vs. convention center is not my argument.  My argument is that DT should be home to both and both can play vital roles in the recreation of a vibrant downtown core.

There is not now, nor has there been a proposal on the table for more than thirty years which would lead to a success for the City of Jacksonville in any arena except for the contractors or developer who wins the project.

The local hotels (even one you mentioned, the Hyatt) state other wise.  I happen to agree with their assessment that the thousands of visitors coming into the city for conventions and trade shows spend money in local hotels, retail shops, gas stations and restaurants.

Phil Tufano, general manager of the Hyatt, said the hotel's owners also are evaluating the possibilities for redevelopment of their property. To make Sleiman's project anywhere near feasible, the hotel's parking garage - which also houses all the hotel's administrative offices, 30 percent of its meeting space and about 70 guest rooms - would have to be demolished.

"We have to address all those issues," Tufano said. "There needs to be a [larger] convention center in the downtown area. Of course, we would like to be the anchor hotel."

John Reyes, president of the CVB, said the bureau's priority is to make the best use of the facilities the city already has. When it comes to the bottom line, any plans for a convention center must include at least 200,000 square feet of contiguous exhibit space (the Prime Osborn has 78,540) and a hotel within walking distance.

"Toney has a vision that works closely with the Hyatt's," Reyes said. "[If they can make it work], it would make perfect business sense."

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/081706/met_4470314.shtml

No room at the inn
04/14/2006
by Rachel Witkowski
Staff Writer

The Jacksonville hotel and motel market is expanding rapidly but in order to continue growing, it needs the city to expand first. Read: build a larger convention center.

During the last 12 months, hotels and motels in Duval County have averaged a 93 percent occupancy rate, according to general manager of the Courtyard by Marriott, Donald Harris, who is also president of the Jacksonville Hotel and Motel Association.

“Right now, to date, we’re at 100 percent occupancy rate,” he said. “It’s like we’re on a train headed forward and we want to keep that train running on its track.”

An average of 10,000-15,000 visitors are staying in Duval County hotels per day, according to the Jacksonville and the Beaches Convention & Visitors Bureau. The 6.6 million visitors who traveled to Northeast Florida in 2004 spent $2.5 billion on hotels, dining, shopping, entertainment and transportation â€" directly impacting the economy to the tune of $4.3 billion, the CVB stated.

But as the hotels, tourism and economy are expanding in Jacksonville, to continue growing, Harris said the area will need a larger convention center to attract more hotel business.

“It’s a real challenge to bring any convention here because we’re too small,” he said. “A lot of hotels have as much space as the convention center has.”

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=44926

[Timkin]

Ok... Tear the old Courthouse down and build a Convention Center then.

[thelakelander]

That's been the plan we've endorsed for years.  The convention center should be relocated to the site of the current county courthouse, adjacent to the Hyatt. This is nothing new.

[thelakelander]

By the same token, neither will turning the terminal back into a train station. However, strategically placing projects like these will lead to urban connectivity that creates pedestrian synergy and vibrancy.

Turning the terminal back into a train station would be a boon for connectivity.  A centrally located train station would make it a lot easier for passengers to arrange for ground transportation, easier for passengers to find nearby lodging and/or dining and easier access (Many people don't even know that we have an Amtrak station).

Connectivity is the answer, not train station, convention center, shopping mall or whatever isolated concept someone can dream of.  Downtown sucks because there is no connectivity to create synergy and pedestrian connectivity.  With that said, both a train station and convention center can be designed to stimulate connectivity.  For example, moving the convention center next to the Hyatt, the Landing, Florida Theater and bars on Bay Street is a form of connectivity.  In doing so, a convention center replaces a huge parking lot, placing guests within immediate walking distance of existing entertainment, hotel and retail options in the core.  All of these places would benefit from a few extra thousands of guest annually, looking to spend money.

[thelakelander]

Ok... Tear the old Courthouse down and build a Convention Center then.

and then what?

There are already existing business models for a successful convention center.  This would not be among them.

Then what?  Success would be more foot traffic, business and money for Bay Street, the Florida Theater, Hyatt, Riverwalk, Landing, local hotels, gas stations, etc.  Success would be urban synergy and the money/image/prestige that comes from it.

[thelakelander]

Incidentally all of these information sources are from the agencies whose existence is dependent on perpetuating the the "Someday we'll be a Convention City" industry.

I wouldnt trust a single one of them.

So you're claiming that the conventions and trade shows who say they left Jacksonville because of inadequate facilities did not?  You're also claiming that the Hyatt's largest space is more than 28k square feet and that its own manager did not say Jax needs a larger convention facility?  Okay, but without linked sources proving these statements to be inaccurate, I'm going to have to go with the Hyatt's website, TU articles and quotes provided by them.

[Timkin]

I think the Convention center as it is now is a waste.   I also think putting Millions into a new one is a waste, but so be it..  We can have Home and Patio Shows and Boat Shows and Whatever shows in other Facilities..   This is as big of a waste as this Sprawing new WAY OVER BUDGET Courthouse that just absolutely HAS to be built!

[thelakelander]

Ok... Tear the old Courthouse down and build a Convention Center then.

and then what?

There are already existing business models for a successful convention center.  This would not be among them.

In short, here are a few things you need for a successful convention center:

1. Adequate space
Jax does not have this, as proven by the trade shows leaving for better facilities.

2. An adjacent convention center hotel
We have the Hyatt (which was subsidized by COJ) but its over a mile away from the Prime Osborn.

3. Complementing uses (entertainment, restaurants, retail, etc.) within walking distance
The Prime Osborn is surrounded by dirt lots.

Until these three things change, Jax's convention facilities will remain inadequate and a failure.
 

[thelakelander]

I think the Convention center as it is now is a waste.   I also think putting Millions into a new one is a waste, but so be it..  We can have Home and Patio Shows and Boat Shows and Whatever shows in other Facilities..   This is as big of a waste as this Sprawing new WAY OVER BUDGET Courthouse that just absolutely HAS to be built!

What facilities?  The Prime Osborn is the largest facility we have and its outdated and too small.  Again, let's take a look at these quotes from conventions and trade shows that have recently left DT, taking their visitors and money with them.

The CVB, which helps bring larger regional, state and national conventions that generate room-nights, most recently lost two of its larger clients for 2009. After 10 years of holding annual events at the Prime Osborn, the state's Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and The State Cheer & Dance Championships of Florida are moving to Daytona Beach, taking $3 million in economic impact.

The Florida Fire Chiefs' Association said it needed 100,000 more square feet to clear exhibits from the lobby areas, according to information provided by the CVB. It uses 117,300 square feet at the Prime Osborn.

Gainesville-based American Championships, which operates State Cheer & Dance, said it needed an additional 40,000 square feet to expand the event and have more warm-up space.

The Prime Osborn's size and the cost to transport event attendees to the nearest hotels were the primary reasons for lost business, said Shirley Smith, CVB's vice president of sales.[/color]

Both conventions will host their events at Daytona's Ocean Center in 2009, the same year it will open as an expanded convention center with 452,491 square feet of space, nearly double its existing size.

Opportunities for expanding events targeted at this market, such as the Jacksonville Spring Home & Patio Show and the Jacksonville International Car & Truck Show, are also limited. Reyes said associations that produce such events generate 60 percent to 70 percent of their revenue from them.

The Car & Truck Show, produced by event marketer Paragon Group Inc. of Massachusetts, has been at the Prime Osborn for nine years. For the past two years vehicles were placed on the grass lot in front of the Prime Osborn, in the parking lot and in lobbies. The Prime Osborn's doorways were changed to bring more vehicles to the lower rooms, said Barbara Pudney, vice president and show producer at Paragon.

Pudney said changing the doorways helped accommodate the Car & Truck Show's recent growth but an expanded Prime Osborn would facilitate an even bigger and better event.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html

This isn't make believe.  Whether we think we need a new center or not, large conventions and trade shows are leaving DT Jax.  Whether we think we have a parking problem or not, corporations are leaving DT Jax.  Whether one agrees with historic preservation or not, our historic building stock continues to fall like dominos.  Sooner or later, we're going to have to stop thinking, denying and ignoring and start implementing some serious solutions.  

[Jaxson]

By the same token, neither will turning the terminal back into a train station. However, strategically placing projects like these will lead to urban connectivity that creates pedestrian synergy and vibrancy.

Turning the terminal back into a train station would be a boon for connectivity.  A centrally located train station would make it a lot easier for passengers to arrange for ground transportation, easier for passengers to find nearby lodging and/or dining and easier access (Many people don't even know that we have an Amtrak station).

Connectivity is the answer, not train station, convention center, shopping mall or whatever isolated concept someone can dream of.  Downtown sucks because there is no connectivity to create synergy and pedestrian connectivity.  With that said, both a train station and convention center can be designed to stimulate connectivity.  For example, moving the convention center next to the Hyatt, the Landing, Florida Theater and bars on Bay Street is a form of connectivity.  In doing so, a convention center replaces a huge parking lot, placing guests within immediate walking distance of existing entertainment, hotel and retail options in the core.  All of these places would benefit from a few extra thousands of guest annually, looking to spend money.

That is my point.  I am still befuddled at how our city continues to support leaving our Amtrak station where it currently is - a trash can.  That's a great first impression for visitors to our area - not!  We could benefit greatly from integrating our rail passenger station into our urban core and its transportation offerings.  
I don't want to sound like a cynic, but I believe that the status quo thinking in our city is going to make a multi-modal transportation hub about as likely as Lindsay Lohan winning an Academy Award.

[thelakelander]

^We're getting there.  We're going to pull this city kicking and screaming if that's what it takes to get Amtrak back downtown and the Prime Osborn back to its original use.

[Timkin]

I agree Jaxson, and since the Convention Center is where it is and there are empty dirt lots adjacent, why not develop this?  Why not develop an area of town that has been all but razed... This is all part of DOWNTOWN JACKSONVILLE.  But what do I know?  I guess not much really.

BTW  Jaxson  lol abt the Lindsey Lohan part.. agreed .

[thelakelander]

By the way, why should we expect a public exhibition hall to make a profit by itself? Like mass transit, roads, libraries and parks, they are public quality of life investments that stimulate indirect profits throughout the community.

This would be true if it brought some kind of result.  For 50 years it simply hasnt.

Some say the same thing about rail and use the skyway as their proof.  You're doing the same thing by basing your argument off a broken model.  The Prime Osborn fails because it was not set up to succeed in the beginning.  Instead of leaving it where a terminal should be, move it to an environment where such a facility has a greater chance of stimulating connectivity and synergy with complementing uses.

The idea comes from a different age, when conventions were the lifeblood of industries.

Modern technology has made them into networking events and the role of industrial demos at conventions has been diminishing over the past few years.

This means that people are looking for party cities or an environment designed for socialization, which Jacksonville simply does not provide.

Face-to-Face interaction will always be a part of our lives.  In addition, convention facilities also host trade shows where people and businesses can see a variety of products and materials up close and personal.  As long as we remain an industrialized nation, there will always be a place for such events.  However, that place does not have to be Jacksonville.  We can make a decision to continue to fall behind by telling those companies and groups to take their events to more progressive cities that have invested in facilities to host and entertain them.

I spoke at length with Jessie Lynne Kerr of the Times Union once regarding the career of Eve Heaney, the managing editor of the Chamber of Commerce's "Jacksonville" magazine in the 1960s.  In the course of the conversation we got into a pretty indepth discussion about the history of the "Convention Business" strategy in Jax.

There had been some moderate success in bringing to conventions to the city, largely as a result of about 10 guys, including Haydon Burns.  The rest of the convention business was driven by key individuals from the chamber (who happened to be on the same personal business level as Preston Haskell or Herb Peyton) that were making it their civic duty to go to other conventions across the country and sell Jacksonville as a good place to have a convention.

But the blue print for how best to build a convention center seems to have been built by people whose understanding of them came solely from going to conventions in other cities.

They apparently didnt look at how the centers were built into multiuse arenas and didnt stop to consider that it wasnt really a 'chicken/egg' situation.  They experienced them in the role of tourists.

It didnt occur to them that the city's vibrancy is what led to the need for a convention space.  Building a Convention Center wasnt a way to reverse engineer a downtown success.

Which is what this whole conversation is about.  Reverse engineering a success for downtown by exposing it to hypothetical out of town conventioneers.

It would be like trying to reverse engineer electricity by building a microwave oven.

I agree with some of this (ex. the building design side of things).  However, right now our goal should be to try and save what we have left.  Completely getting out of the business does the exact opposite.  Under no circumstances should a metro with 1.3 million residents that claims to want to be a business and industrial center, not have a decent convention facility.

[Timkin]

All I am getting at is the Convention Center in my humble opinion is not on a top 10 list ..or top 5 list or even top 3 list.   I never LIKED that it was placed where it was placed, but had it not been the Jacksonville Terminal would probably have followed every other beautiful structure that is no longer in our Urban Core....to a landfill.    NOW  and maybe not even 10 years from now is the time to be thinking about a convention center. Jeez.. We cannot even dream up a plan to save a 2 Story Fire Station  which is the only (that I know of ) remaining landmark of Brooklyn left on Riverside Ave, but lets GET THAT COURTHOUSE UP AND RUNNING!  We no more needed that Courthouse (at this juncture )  than we need a new Convention Center RIGHT NOW.  Lets tear down the old Courthouse ( I have no objection there...Im not sure why it was ever placed there to begin with) and lets build a new bigger Convention Center, when we cannot even keep the existing one busy.  I understand some of the statistics.  Clay County, one of the most rapid-growing counties in the country has had only two (to my knowledge) Courthouse facilities in the past Century... How many has Jacksonville now had , including the one going up now?   Where theres a will theres a way, and Lake, I know you know what you're talking about ..  I dont think this convention center is going to be the Messiah , so to speak of recreating our Urban Core.   In this economy I do not see how ANY Convention Center anywhere, let alone Jacksonville, is doing that great.

[thelakelander]

There is 110,000 square feet of space at the Hyatt.

Combining it with the 265,000 square feet of space at the Prime Osborn leaves 375,000 square feet of space available for a convention.

The Hyatt's largest column free exhibition space is the Grand Ballroom at 27,984 square feet.  110,000 square feet is the gross floor area and includes the kitchen, smaller meeting rooms, lobby, etc.  That is significantly smaller than the Prime Osborn's 78,500 square foot exhibition hall, which has been proven to be inadequate.

Here is a listiing of the largest convention centers in the world:

# McCormick Place, Chicago, Illinois, 2.7 million
# Orange County Convention Center, Orlando, Florida, 2.1 million
# Las Vegas Convention Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, 2+ million, 3.2 million total space
# Boston Convention and Exhibition Center, Boston, Massachusetts, 1.7 million
# Georgia World Congress Center, Atlanta, Georgia, 1.5 million

Nice list but we're a regional player, not an international or national one.  Our peers are places like Charlotte, Birmingham, Memphis, Mobile, Richmond, etc.

The amount of space that Jacksonville has for an event is pretty respectable. Especially if you add in the halls at the Main Library and the city's ability to bend over backwards to provide transportation via trolleys and skyway.

Our largest single site space is 78,500 square feet.  Very few are going to go through the trouble of spreading out their event all over several small buildings.  Instead, you go where the space you need exists (ex. Birmingham, Nashville, etc.).

The Convention Center itself is connected via skyway to every single large hotel on the north and south banks of the urban core, with the exception of the Hyatt.

A couple of big problems with this line of thinking.  The Hyatt happens to be your convention center hotel (which should be attached to the convention center, btw) and the skyway doesn't even run on the weekends or night, making it totally useless.

Yet we aren't booking conventions.

The Hyatt is able to expand up to triple its size if it needs to, and yet it doesnt.  Why?

Because we arent booking conventions.

If you don't have the facility, you can't book the event (see previous quotes of events leaving Jax because of the facility issue). The Hyatt also doesn't have the space to expand.  However, once the courthouse relocates that surface parking lot would help.  Also, I believe the Hyatt may have an option on that property and has entertained the idea of a public/private partnership for a larger convention facility.

If you do some cursory research, there is a sweet combo of elements that a city needs to create a succesful convention center.

First of all, the center itself is usually physically colocated with a sporting arena.  That way the facility isnt empty during the times between events, leaving the entire area around it dead.

They also usually are colocated with a theatre or large scale performance arena.

We had the ability to create this complex when we built the Veterans Memorial building.  We didnt.

Third, the city is also usually known for its excellent night life amenities---which Jacksonville is simply not noted for.

Between our regulatory agencies, parking policies, and the habit of coralling all possible life out of the sports complex as soon as possible, Jacksonville could not possibly be more hostile to the environment that convention planners look for.



We have recently watched the complete destruction of a viable entertainment/commercial corridor along main street in Springfield by a group of 50 homeowners for questionable purposes, we are watching the same thing being attempted in the King Street district, and we have allowed fundamentalist religious people to close down most of the nightlife in downtown.

Until we address these things (and begin fining the shit out of frivolous or malicious complaints on the part of citizens) and start making intelligent decisions about how these things actually work structurally in the real world, then they are doomed to failure.

If New York cannot make its convention centers work without the colocation of other major events arenas, then what the hell is Jacksonville thinking its going to do?

We've been doing research for years and have ran several articles on our own site.  Need vs. design are two distinct issues.  What happens in NYC has nothing to do with Jax's need for a decent sized facility for our market.  NYC is a different animal with a different set of issues.  Again, we already have conventions, trade shows, business, etc. in this town.  Because we have not invested in our facilities we are losing them and in danger of losing more.  No one is advocating building a million square foot center to compete with NYC, Chicago or Las Vegas.  No one is advocating implementing a DT redevelopment strategy around a convention center box either.  However, there is a need to attempt to keep the businesses and events we already have and put us in a position to grow.