Architecture Firm KBJ Destroys Historic Church

[thelakelander]

Written by cinch2win, Friday, June 15, 2007 at 12:48:26 am EDT

Lake - If the property has sat there owned by the same tenant for 26 years, surely someone could have done more with it than what the outcome provided? Surely!

The easiest comparison would be to look at many of the properties the city owns in the core.  There's been several cases of the private sector wanting to lease or purchase underutilized city owned property, only to be turned away.

KBJ used the building for storage for a number of those years.  There's never been (at least in recent years) a "for sale" sign placed on that building and KBJ never gave any intentions of wanting to sell the premier corner of a full city block in their ownership.  Unfortunately, they never bothered to properly maintain it either and the city has done a poor job of code enforcement.  Nevertheless, we wouldn't be having this debate today if the council had not over ruled the educated opinion of the historic commission.  Which brings up another question....

Why have one if you're not going to listen to them anyway?  Seems like a waste of public funds.

If someone had offered more for the land, something more could have been done, but with so many open lots, why spend the money to rehab it or build on it? Its economics 101. No one stepped forward to use the property for more than a parking lot.

That's like saying if Len Bias hadn't overdosed, he'd be a hall of famer by now.  If the owner has no intentions of selling a small piece of a large city block they own, then the game is over, as far as making offers.  Unless, you're suggesting over paying (Hionides-style) a slumlord for his land.

Its not about stepping forward.  This thing is about, demolition by neglect, the council overriding the historic commission to allow demolition and the potential approval of parking, which violates the downtown master plan.  This has public ineptitude written all over it. :'(

[cinch2win]

Len Bias was a tragic story, I guess that is your point, but really, the 14 people who were displaced by a fire on the westside is a more tragic story, but since neither relate to this downtown matter, let's refocus.

The master plan and overlay are words and graphics on paper. Its the people who enforce them that should be held accountable either way. So throw out those who fail to follow the documents, or wait and run for office and make a difference. If Code Enforcement was told to back off of the building, then Derek Igou should be called to the mat. That is a difficult department and you are always going to tick someone off.

I thought that the Jax Historical Department in the city had Joel and 2 other planners, maybe with a secretary, are there more than that? That does not seem like a huge burden to the 1 billion dollar budget, but maybe we could limit Joel's pay raise next year. I think for the number of people, they do an outstanding job. This was a small issue, and perhaps there are more coming that deserve more attention. I can't speak for Joel.

We can agree to disagree, I know that if a building sits empty, it breeds bad things, decay, prostitution, drugs, so either use it or lose it. Had the old library been at this same site and the church at 122 Ocean, would it have made a difference? I doubt it, the library would have been torn down and someone would have seen the value of property at 122 Ocean, and thus saved it.

People do not build buildings to be monuments, they are built to be used and because they are used, people revere them as monuments.

[thelakelander]

Len Bias was a tragic story, I guess that is your point, but really, the 14 people who were displaced by a fire on the westside is a more tragic story, but since neither relate to this downtown matter, let's refocus.

They all relate in that they are tragic stories.

The master plan and overlay are words and graphics on paper. Its the people who enforce them that should be held accountable either way.

Agreed.  If we really want to see downtown develop successfully, the master plan needs to become more than words and graphics on paper.  It needs to become an official part of zoning.  If not, the city needs to stop wasting it's time and money putting together such things.

So throw out those who fail to follow the documents, or wait and run for office and make a difference.

..or continue to expose the problems to gather more support for change, in the meantime.

If Code Enforcement was told to back off of the building, then Derek Igou should be called to the mat. That is a difficult department and you are always going to tick someone off.

I thought that the Jax Historical Department in the city had Joel and 2 other planners, maybe with a secretary, are there more than that? That does not seem like a huge burden to the 1 billion dollar budget, but maybe we could limit Joel's pay raise next year. I think for the number of people, they do an outstanding job.

If we fail to listen to them, the work they do is useless, regardless of how good they are.  Btw, I believe this city needs them, but their work needs to be respected and right now its not.

This was a small issue, and perhaps there are more coming that deserve more attention. I can't speak for Joel.

Unfortunately, most buildings destroyed in downtown were small issues.  In the suburbs that may not matter, but in an urban environment, continuous building fabric is a major element of urban pedestrian friendly vibrancy, while parking lots are the anti-christ.  At this point, you might as well take out the Porter house too or plop it off of JTB.  Its significance has declined over the decades, considering the block of urban fabric around it has been reduced to asphalt.

We can agree to disagree, I know that if a building sits empty, it breeds bad things, decay, prostitution, drugs, so either use it or lose it.

No doubt, but you're overlooking the fact that the owner/city both let it decay by neglect for two decades.  If we had a true understanding of what revitalizing a downtown core really means, it would have never gotten that far.  Until we grasp the importance of having building fabric (instead of parking lots), our downtown revitalization efforts will never achieve what we want and spend money visiting other cities to see.

Had the old library been at this same site and the church at 122 Ocean, would it have made a difference? I doubt it, the library would have been torn down and someone would have seen the value of property at 122 Ocean, and thus saved it.

This is not so much about historic preservation or the building's importance as it is introducing blight into an urban area.  Yes, vacant buildings are a better use in the downtown core than surface parking lots.  At least they contribute to the architectural diversity and scenery of the core.  They also are easier for mom & pops to set up shop than building from scratch.

25 Urban Districts: What Do They Have In Common?: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/358/83/

People do not build buildings to be monuments, they are built to be used and because they are used, people revere them as monuments.

Nobody ever claimed the building was a monument.  The problem is, how we got to this point and the negative impact that what's replacing it on the core.  

[Lunican]

Update:

[Lunican]

It will be interesting to see what becomes of this land.

[JerryH]

As a former KBJ employee, now living and working in New Orleans, I would like to say that it is a shame that the building was demoilished.  However, they have owned the building for as long as they have owned the main house.  It was used as storage, a model making shop, and for a little while, the main floor was used as a basketball court.  There was talk while I was there of potentially renovating it and leasing it, but the costs to do so was unbelievable.  When the buildings were bought, the neighborhood was terrible.  Female workers had to be escored to their cars if they worked until dark.  Several employees were mugged. So the fact that an old, established firm of that nature moved into a neighborhood like that, seems to me they did a fair amount to make the area appealing for people to come in there to work, etc.

As for them making Jacksonville ugly...give me a break.  Do you know how many people outside of Jacksonville think that the city has a beautiful skyline.  Yes, some of the buildings are old and outdated, but they were built in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's.  If you are saying old and ugly buildings should be torn down, then you are contradicting yourself.  When the buildings were designed and built, they were cutting edge.  Get over it.  Several of those buildings have won awards from the AIA (American Insitute of Architects), so someone must think they aren't so bad.

As for historical buildings, Jacksonville does need to work on that.  However, there is a point that is overboard, like New Orleans.  Everyone here thinks buildings should look like they were built in the 1800's.  People forget that when these buildings were built, they were cutting edge.  There is a fine line between living in the past (like New Orleans) and trying to become a cutting edge city and respect it's past (like Jacksonville).

These are my humble opinions.  Thanks.

[thelakelander]

As for them making Jacksonville ugly...give me a break.  Do you know how many people outside of Jacksonville think that the city has a beautiful skyline.  Yes, some of the buildings are old and outdated, but they were built in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's.  If you are saying old and ugly buildings should be torn down, then you are contradicting yourself.  When the buildings were designed and built, they were cutting edge.  Get over it.  Several of those buildings have won awards from the AIA (American Insitute of Architects), so someone must think they aren't so bad.

Regarding architectural styles and AIA awards, designs come a dime a dozen and you'll always have people who view them differently.  However, what's twenty times more important to the success of the urban core is how these structures meet the street and integrate with and improve their surroundings.  From an urban planning standpoint, many of those structures, such as MODIS, leave a lot to be desired.  Anyway, that's a completely different subject that can feed it's own large thread.

I agree that the skyline is very attractive, yet it's also quite decieving once you get down there at street level and discover a different picture.  Nevertheless, the real negative here is the elimination of urban building fabric for a dirt lot in the heart of what is supposed to be pedestrian district. 

Dispite the Porter House being on that block, it's a visual blight on the downtown core, due to the nasty conditions of the KBJ owned parking lot, to the west and now a dirt lot, to the south.  The north is not much to cry about either, but at least Ashley Towers keeps their surface lot decently landscaped.  I may be asking too much, but is it wrong to expect an architectural firm to at least properly maintain the grounds of it's home office?

[hightowerlover]

That building in the background is what needs to be leveled. It's hideous.  At least the church had some architectural interest.

[jaxhater]

Four thousand and twenty to go.....keep up the good work boys!

[Timkin]

Another ingenious move of our city... and regarding the comment of the Ambassador... I would not be surprised if it sees the wrecking ball.  I am beginning to feel the same way about Annie Lytle..  A Buyer buys them  (Annie and this Church) Boards them up (or not) they sit for decades , and Historic Status or not , they come down .. 

IMO Buildings ARE monuments.  they are the end product of their Architecture and Designer.. It is obvious that everything has a beginning and an end..  But what are we going to end up with in Jacksonville? Glass and Concrete Towers , a few older homes , and the rest vacant land??  This is beyond absurd, beyond ridiculous.  We tear this Church down, yet the HIDEOUS PIECE OF CRAP  Parkview Hotel is still standing , in spite of the fact that its gutted, it has evidence of an extensive fire , there are far more dangers lurking in that piece of junk than there ever was in this Church.

Guess he who has the gold makes the rules.   What the rest of us think really never mattered.  Nice going , KBJ .   douchebags!

[RiversideLoki]

I was driving by the KBJ abomination that is our new courthouse on the way to Dos Gatos with my architect friend this evening and we discussed this very subject. What the eff?

[CS Foltz]

What I have never found out is just how we are paying for our "New Courthouse"? John Boy did not hesitate to crank up for it, but nothing has been said about how we are to pay for it? Maybe johnny is going to charge a Fee for cases tried there which would be about right for hiz honor! I did not ask for it and with the budget stretched beyond imagination neither he nor the Council are doing their jobs! Having City Departments tabbed with oversight on Historical structures does no good if that department is not listened too! Just one more example of the waste that takes place throughout!

[Jaxson]

As a former KBJ employee, now living and working in New Orleans, I would like to say that it is a shame that the building was demoilished.  However, they have owned the building for as long as they have owned the main house.  It was used as storage, a model making shop, and for a little while, the main floor was used as a basketball court.  There was talk while I was there of potentially renovating it and leasing it, but the costs to do so was unbelievable.  When the buildings were bought, the neighborhood was terrible.  Female workers had to be escored to their cars if they worked until dark.  Several employees were mugged. So the fact that an old, established firm of that nature moved into a neighborhood like that, seems to me they did a fair amount to make the area appealing for people to come in there to work, etc.

As for them making Jacksonville ugly...give me a break.  Do you know how many people outside of Jacksonville think that the city has a beautiful skyline.  Yes, some of the buildings are old and outdated, but they were built in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's.  If you are saying old and ugly buildings should be torn down, then you are contradicting yourself.  When the buildings were designed and built, they were cutting edge.  Get over it.  Several of those buildings have won awards from the AIA (American Insitute of Architects), so someone must think they aren't so bad.

As for historical buildings, Jacksonville does need to work on that.  However, there is a point that is overboard, like New Orleans.  Everyone here thinks buildings should look like they were built in the 1800's.  People forget that when these buildings were built, they were cutting edge.  There is a fine line between living in the past (like New Orleans) and trying to become a cutting edge city and respect it's past (like Jacksonville).

These are my humble opinions.  Thanks.

I am going to begin my reply with a quote from "Clueless."  A '90s film classic...

Tai: Do you think she's pretty?
Cher: No, she's a full-on Monet.
Tai: What's a monet?
Cher: It's like a painting, see? From far away, it's OK, but up close, it's a big old mess.

Yes, from the highway, downtown Jacksonville has a pretty skyline.  All of the nice, modern glass buildings sparkle in the sun like a glittery vampire.  But, upon closer inspection, downtown doesn't look so great.  Dilapadated buildings and abandoned lots dominate the landscape.

I acknowledge that KBJ did the socially responsible thing by having a downtown presence.  They however, hurt downtown by adding yet another building to the long list of buildings that have been razed.  And, for what, surface parking?  I am not sure if demolishing the old church was the only solution to the parkng problem.

As for New Orleans, history is an integral part of its culture and its appeal.  Are they stubborn?  Yes, and they should be.  Unlike us, they know that you can't build an 18th or 19th century building from scratch once it has been torn down.  Cities like New Orleans, Savannah and Charleston know what side their bread is buttered on and they fight important fights to prevent their cultural fabric from being irreversably compromised.

I do not think that the bulk of the criticism is aimed at the 'award-winning' buildings that occupy downtown.  I think that most of the metrojacksonville folks are more upset with historic buildings that are demolished for either parking lots or that are demolished with no concrete plans for something to replace them.  Ooooh, another 'award-winning' vacant lot.

I do not that that any of us are against progress.  We only object to what passes for 'progress' in Jacksonville.

[vicupstate]

^^  I couldn't agree more. 

History simply isn't important to either the powerbrokers or the citizenry in Jacksonville.  Until and unless that changes, the demolitions will continue. 

[TheProfessor]

I don't think you should be knocking down any architecture of the urban fabric unless you plan to put something great there great in its place.  Now we just have an empty lot and a missing tooth!