Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[Jaxson]

Amtrak can be accommodated at the old terminal regardless of the convention center's situation.  Jax just needs to find a way to come up with the money to pay for the train station's relocation.

Thank you, thelakelander!  We cannot treat this like an either/or situation because it gives more fuel to those who want to kick the can down the road for future leaders to handle.  Waiting for the convention center to leave is like waiting for a new Madison Square Garden in New York City before coming up with a better Penn Station...

Not JIA, not MCO, not MIA, not TPA, not Boston, not New York, not Los Angeles, not Washington, not any location, not any era, not any fame, not any glory, with the exception of Divinity, could hold a candle to our JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL in the halcyon days of railroading.


Rest assured that this is happening behind the scenes RIGHT NOW... Amtrak's VP for our region is well aware of the desire, need, and necessity.  I have floated a plan and Lake and Myself are working on the details, sketches and description to run as a story very soon.  Relocation, temporary stations, etc... are done all the time, so this isn't something unique to Jacksonville or Amtrak's experience.

The gist of my plan is to use what we already have, (yes Mildred that includes the tunnels) and build from the rail side up towards Bay Street, but you'll have to wait for the article if you want more detail then that!

Timkin, cost as Lake said could be VERY economical, and most of what we put down for the temporary station will serve us well right into the distant future as components of the "new" Amtrak Intercity Rail - JTA Commuter Rail - FDOT Regional Rail station. 

The COJ MUST keep in mind that what we do with that terminal in the next 10 years will determine for all of time the position of Jacksonville in the greater railroad map of North America.  Boy's and Girl's, it's FOURTH AND ONE on the 1 yard line, we can't afford to punt.  Stay in the game and we'll be the only city besides Chicago with Amtrak, State, Regional, Local AND 3 separate high speed rail consortium's (Southeast, Gulf Coast and Florida).

BTW, NEW YORK CITY is working to create a "new" PENN STATION with several BILLION dollars of new investment in rail, as I recall it will be a conversion of the former Post Office Building.

SPUWHO QUOTE:
It's a shame they took out the siding to the old FEC HQ when they moved to Jacksonville. While not practical for Amtrak, that would have made a great end of the line for a NE Florida commuter station.

The PV tracks vanished in the 1960's long before anyone thought of moving the Railroad's HQ to Jacksonville. While it might have made a cool terminal for Commuter Rail, it would also have written off all stations south of the HQ. So West St. Augustine, Palm Coast/Bunnell would not be possible without some snarling backup moves midroute. Understand that Amtrak today and railroad's historically  have frowned on backup moves into a station since about 1909 when the text book "Passenger Terminals and Trains," came out. This is important as anyone from our city is likely to hear an argument against this practice tossed at our own JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL. Be sure and tell the doomsday prophets that a mid route back in move is perfectly okay IF the trains are going to be split, enjoined or switched around anyway. JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL is nothing if it is not perhaps the nation's premeir passenger train make-up and break-up point, so "BACK EM IN BOYS!" In fact properly planned that first back up move could be a large part of the split/make up moves that will be required anyhow. They'll come in from New York on a single route, From New Orleans on a single route, and from the Midwest on one of two routes... but they'll head south on THREE routes to Miami, and TWO routes to Tampa, plus a possible Ft. Myers/Naples, and Sarasota/Venice route.

OCKLAWAHA

@Ock --- Thank you for keeping us in the loop on this issue.  There is little information from local media or government about any kind of progress, and this is frustrating.  The silence often leads me to believe that they are sitting on their hands.  After all, the movers and shakers in the city don't ride the train and probably don't see the value in reviving downtown.  I hope that you are right that we are currently at fourth and one.  I am hoping for a major touchdown for passenger rail in our city.

[tufsu1]

Ok... A few posts back I mentioned Annie being converted to a convention center (with an addition on to the back of the School. Horrible idea?  I thought I heard something about it being eventually moved to the site of the Current Courthouse but I could be mistaken.   Annie should be reused for something quite significant , and maybe  this is not the best use.. Ideas anyone ?

convention centers should be in the center of town...near hotels and entertainment districts....the current courthouse site is perfect...the Annie Lytle site is not appropriate

[thelakelander]

+1

[Timkin]

convention centers should be in the center of town...near hotels and entertainment districts....the current courthouse site is perfect...the Annie Lytle site is not appropriate
[/quote]

  Annie does not seem appropriate for any use. I guess M-train is right. We should just bulldoze another Landmark.  Forget about the fact that the Convention Center was not in the heart of town for the last 20 + years?    Where is the money going to come from to build said convention center? Millions to demolish and haul away the Courthouse , and Millions more to build yet another NEW MODERN UGLY Downtown building.   

Sheesh.. I give up .

[thelakelander]

The fact that the convention center was not surrounded by complementing development (entertainment, dining, hotels, etc.) for the last 20 years is a major reason for its failure.   THis is nothing against the Annie Lytle but that's a mistake we should not make again.  In addition, a convention center exhibition hall with have to be new.  There are no historic buildings in this town that satisfy the design criteria requirements for such a facility. 

[CS Foltz]

Upper floors, at the Prime are not really used for much of anything.................so we have an old rail terminal that is used on an irregular basis as a Convention Center and it does not really do anything other than cost money to run? Why do we need a convention center when it does not connect to hotels/eateries and entertainment establishments? Infact ,why do we need a convention center? For an annual Lawn and Garden Show? Heck, we could use Fairgrounds for that.......if we had one...........or even Cecil Field which has plenty of acerage for a spread out event! Prime needs to go back to what it was............Rail Terminal plain and simple!

[Jaxson]

Upper floors, at the Prime are not really used for much of anything.................so we have an old rail terminal that is used on an irregular basis as a Convention Center and it does not really do anything other than cost money to run? Why do we need a convention center when it does not connect to hotels/eateries and entertainment establishments? Infact ,why do we need a convention center? For an annual Lawn and Garden Show? Heck, we could use Fairgrounds for that.......if we had one...........or even Cecil Field which has plenty of acerage for a spread out event! Prime needs to go back to what it was............Rail Terminal plain and simple!

AMEN!!!

[tufsu1]

Better yet....let's stick our heads in the sand and not build anything....if that's your idea of moving forward, then vote for Mike Hogan for mayor

Btw CS....we have a fairgrounds in Jax....next to the arena....you know near downtown....evver been there?

[thelakelander]

You can't be a first tier city without a decent convention center. You'll be hardpressed to find a major vibrant urban american city that does not have one.  Nevertheless, it should not be a competition between the uses. Jacksonville will be a much more vibrant place if we can find a way to improve both.

[thelakelander]

There is a difference between having a convention center and making one the core of a downtown redevelopment strategy.  I don't believe anyone has stated that a new convention center would make DT a success. By the same token, neither will turning the terminal back into a train station. However, strategically placing projects like these will lead to urban connectivity that creates pedestrian synergy and vibrancy. Nevertheless, regardless of the DT environment, exhibition space is something that complements a major business environment. Locally, we just need to make sure that space is located in a manner to where it stimulates and reinforces walkability.

[thelakelander]

By the way, why should we expect a public exhibition hall to make a profit by itself? Like mass transit, roads, libraries and parks, they are public quality of life investments that stimulate indirect profits throughout the community.

[Jaxson]

By the same token, neither will turning the terminal back into a train station. However, strategically placing projects like these will lead to urban connectivity that creates pedestrian synergy and vibrancy.

Turning the terminal back into a train station would be a boon for connectivity.  A centrally located train station would make it a lot easier for passengers to arrange for ground transportation, easier for passengers to find nearby lodging and/or dining and easier access (Many people don't even know that we have an Amtrak station).

[thelakelander]

I'm with my son at football practice. I'll respond to your latest posts in detail when I get back home later today.

[Timkin]

Meh.  Not another building needs to be torn down or another million dollars needs to be spent on this worthless project.

In the future we might need one, but at the present time, the convention facilities of the Hyatt will serve us well for another generation.

In looking at the business structures of the other successful city centers, we would be well advised to convert the Prime Osborn into a multi modal transportation center with a hotel/housing center built into the actual structure (perhaps after the same model of the proposed Bank Hotel by Atkins and Company.

There is not now, nor has there been a proposal on the table for more than thirty years which would lead to a success for the City of Jacksonville in any arena except for the contractors or developer who wins the project.

Agree  Stephen!  Not another building should come down.  And we do not even need a stupid convention center anyway....at least it is certainly not on a top 5 list.

[Jaxson]

By the way, why should we expect a public exhibition hall to make a profit by itself? Like mass transit, roads, libraries and parks, they are public quality of life investments that stimulate indirect profits throughout the community.

This would be true if it brought some kind of result.  For 50 years it simply hasnt.

The idea comes from a different age, when conventions were the lifeblood of industries.

Modern technology has made them into networking events and the role of industrial demos at conventions has been diminishing over the past few years.

This means that people are looking for party cities or an environment designed for socialization, which Jacksonville simply does not provide.

I spoke at length with Jessie Lynne Kerr of the Times Union once regarding the career of Eve Heaney, the managing editor of the Chamber of Commerce's "Jacksonville" magazine in the 1960s.  In the course of the conversation we got into a pretty indepth discussion about the history of the "Convention Business" strategy in Jax.

There had been some moderate success in bringing to conventions to the city, largely as a result of about 10 guys, including Haydon Burns.  The rest of the convention business was driven by key individuals from the chamber (who happened to be on the same personal business level as Preston Haskell or Herb Peyton) that were making it their civic duty to go to other conventions across the country and sell Jacksonville as a good place to have a convention.

But the blue print for how best to build a convention center seems to have been built by people whose understanding of them came solely from going to conventions in other cities.

They apparently didnt look at how the centers were built into multiuse arenas and didnt stop to consider that it wasnt really a 'chicken/egg' situation.  They experienced them in the role of tourists.

It didnt occur to them that the city's vibrancy is what led to the need for a convention space.  Building a Convention Center wasnt a way to reverse engineer a downtown success.

Which is what this whole conversation is about.  Reverse engineering a success for downtown by exposing it to hypothetical out of town conventioneers.

It would be like trying to reverse engineer electricity by building a microwave oven.

I have attended conventions in San Diego, Boston, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Kansas City, Tampa and Orlando.  I totally agree with you on this, stephendare.
Whenever I attend an out-of-town convention, what immediately comes to mind for me is how that city is geared toward conventions and visitors.  
The key question to ask is, "Would you come to this city if you were not coming here for a convention?"  A successful convention city, in my opinion, gives the visitor a great experience beyond the convention.
In San Diego, that meant getting on the trolley and visiting Old Town, catching a Padres game near my downtown hotel or taking a tour bus to Cornonado.
In Boston, it included getting a multi-day 'T' pass to go to Cambridge, Revere Beach, Prudential Center and the Kennedy Library; having lunch at Quincy Market; walking the Freedom Trail, and going clubbing near my hotel.
In Philadelphia, I enjoyed sampling local scrapple, seeing the Liberty Bell, taking the train to see some friends in Manayunk, having dinner aboard Moshulu, etc.
And the list goes on...
Either my activities were within walking distance of my hotel, or transportation was simple.  Not all convention people are going to rent a car to seek things out in the suburbs.  As a matter of fact, only in Kansas City did I rent a car from the airport.  I took the train to most of the other cities (Except Orlando - I drove).