Should Jax invest in a new convention center?

[Jaxson]

That train station is horrible.  Even if you go to Savanna or Jesup Ga things are better.  They use the old time station theme.  Now the DC station is super nice of course.  Not only does the city need to pick it up, Amtrak needs to get in the game.  Offer some incentives for the city.  You know it would be a huge boost for them.  But then again anything that may upset one of their union employees is out of the question.

It might be retro, but its better then NO station. I am happy that St. Augustine is on track for getting passenger rail back. I dont like the location of the existing station as much as the planned one in downtown St. Augustine. However it will do fine till they get that one built. Now Jacksonville needs to get them a station downtown, I am hoping they can just use the existing Jacksonville Terminal downtown, but that would require moving the Convention Center (which needs to be done, but we dont have the money) or they could maybe have them both in the same spot... dunno about that.

I hope that we are not waiting to move the convention center before we move the Amtrak station back to downtown.  I think that moving the Amtrak station to the Union Station would provide the impetus for us to move the convention center.  Right now, we are stuck in procrastination mode and we need to either crap or get off of the pot.  
Let it be known that, while I want to move the convention center to somewhere else, we cannot use it as en excuse not to move passenger rail back downtown.  

[Timkin]

Move the Convention Center to.........The Southbank. Tear down the DCSB Building.. It was ugly on day one..and build the Convention Center There.

[thelakelander]

Amtrak can be accommodated at the old terminal regardless of the convention center's situation.  Jax just needs to find a way to come up with the money to pay for the train station's relocation.

[Timkin]

Would that be terribly costly?

[Jaxson]

Amtrak can be accommodated at the old terminal regardless of the convention center's situation.  Jax just needs to find a way to come up with the money to pay for the train station's relocation.

Thank you, thelakelander!  We cannot treat this like an either/or situation because it gives more fuel to those who want to kick the can down the road for future leaders to handle.  Waiting for the convention center to leave is like waiting for a new Madison Square Garden in New York City before coming up with a better Penn Station...

[Jaxson]

@Timkin ---
I do not think that it would be costly for the Amtrak station to co-exist with the convention center until te convention center finds a new home.  I have been to Washington's Union Station when they were hosting a major inaugural ball back in 1997.  Passengers were still able to come and go even with a bunch of dignitaries and security milling around.  If they can pull that off, I am sure that passengers can co-exist with a home and garden show... : )

[Timkin]

Geez,,, in fact it would give passengers something to do while they are waiting ,,just an idea, but I would prefer the Train Station return there.  The Convention center can stay or go, and where it relocates , really matters not to me. I guess an enhanced Annie Lytle Convention Center would not work in part due to lack of parking...but its another thought for the School,,,with an added on building in the back.

[thelakelander]

Would that be terribly costly?

Depends.  If you build what JTA has planned, it will cost a pretty penny.  If you go no frills (add track, covered platforms and use existing building space, etc.) it could be as low as a million or two.

[Timkin]

Well....no frills seems a good start... After all the current Station in the Sketchy Neighborhood isnt exactly Casa Glamore'

[Jaxson]

Would that be terribly costly?

Depends.  If you build what JTA has planned, it will cost a pretty penny.  If you go no frills (add track, covered platforms and use existing building space, etc.) it could be as low as a million or two.

It would make a lot more sense to use existing building space for the train station.  Here is what I would do:
1. Use the old waiting room for ticketing and baggage.  It would allow the Lee Street entrance to be used for taxis and passenger drop-off/pick-up.
2. I would set aside some adjacent space for a small food court and perhaps a car rental kiosk.
I could work - I know it!!!

[Ocklawaha]

I wonder where the original St. Augustine rail station was??  I believe my grandma used to take the FL East Coast Rail up from St. Auggie to Jax Union Station, then trolley over to downtown.

Next to (NORTH OF) the new Flagler College Campus (former Florida East Coast Office Buildings). The original station was a back in or back out with a "Head Station" (end of track) track layout, and a "Through Station" style physical location. Moreover it was almost identical to the new fire station that sits on the exact spot, and this design was not by accident. A nice historic plaque next to the front door has a photo of the original. Of course the original FEC Station didn't have a fire truck garage attached, but the little park and fountain in front WAS the historic entry to the carriages of St. Augustine. The original building had a slightly different pillar shape but the columns were the same overall, so was the porch, patio, roof line, upper floors, lower floors, etc... St. Augustine made a carbon copy of the Flagler Station!

When I was a teen, the tracks still crossed US-1 behind (west of) the old station location, and the platform was still in place along the west edge of the FEC parking lot. The track crossed King and went into the property where the San Sebastian Winery is today.  Florida East Coast had several "PV's" (Private Varnish* = railroad slang for an official office car) spotted on the track and it still had a butterfly roofed shed over the platform. Meanwhile up in Miller Shops, North of the current surviving FEC station, a fleet of perhaps 100 or more passenger cars were systematically being tipped over on their sides and the interior gutted by gasoline propelled flames.  At the rate of a couple a week the funeral pyre burned for a year or more and a pall of death hung over the whole railroad. In fact this is how I ended up owning the former FEC Office car = aka: "The Mountain Queen."

In Streetcar days, the streetcar (St. Johns Electric Railway) crossed the FEC at King, just west of Malaga. The streetcar barn #1 was southeast of the winery next to the old ice plant. The ice plant still stands but the streetcar barn (north end) is gone. Ditto for barn #2 over on the island.

Hope that answers your question...

* PV or Private Varnish was the term the railroaders hung on all private cars of the nabob's and empire builders. It is believed that the phrase refereed to the many coats of clear "polished" varnish that would be applied to the beautiful wooden cars of the late 1800's and very early 1900's. The velvet, wool, teak and mahogany inlays faded with the Tiffany lamps, oriental china and 24kt gold leaf lettering, by the 1950's what cars there were were being built of stainless steel, but the name "PV" is still with us today.

OCKLAWAHA

[spuwho]

The reason the old station doesn't line up is because FEC tore up the line between Lewis Speedway Road and the Wernick & Son Supply. You can see what is today the modern line in one of the 1960 photos as it looks like a siding off to the west.

Today there is a Winn-Dixie that sits on the old ROW and is backed up to the current ROW. That and the drainage pond make a true alignment restoration very difficult.

Also, FDOT took some of it when they widened US1 for the Ponce Island Dr/Ave. D connector.

I see a station relocation project on the horizon, either that or a very slow siding to pull up off the main.

It's a shame they took out the siding to the old FEC HQ when they moved to Jacksonville. While not practical for Amtrak, that would have made a great end of the line for a NE Florida commuter station.

[Ocklawaha]

Amtrak can be accommodated at the old terminal regardless of the convention center's situation.  Jax just needs to find a way to come up with the money to pay for the train station's relocation.

Thank you, thelakelander!  We cannot treat this like an either/or situation because it gives more fuel to those who want to kick the can down the road for future leaders to handle.  Waiting for the convention center to leave is like waiting for a new Madison Square Garden in New York City before coming up with a better Penn Station...

Not JIA, not MCO, not MIA, not TPA, not Boston, not New York, not Los Angeles, not Washington, not any location, not any era, not any fame, not any glory, with the exception of Divinity, could hold a candle to our JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL in the halcyon days of railroading.


Rest assured that this is happening behind the scenes RIGHT NOW... Amtrak's VP for our region is well aware of the desire, need, and necessity.  I have floated a plan and Lake and Myself are working on the details, sketches and description to run as a story very soon.  Relocation, temporary stations, etc... are done all the time, so this isn't something unique to Jacksonville or Amtrak's experience.

The gist of my plan is to use what we already have, (yes Mildred that includes the tunnels) and build from the rail side up towards Bay Street, but you'll have to wait for the article if you want more detail then that!

Timkin, cost as Lake said could be VERY economical, and most of what we put down for the temporary station will serve us well right into the distant future as components of the "new" Amtrak Intercity Rail - JTA Commuter Rail - FDOT Regional Rail station. 

The COJ MUST keep in mind that what we do with that terminal in the next 10 years will determine for all of time the position of Jacksonville in the greater railroad map of North America.  Boy's and Girl's, it's FOURTH AND ONE on the 1 yard line, we can't afford to punt.  Stay in the game and we'll be the only city besides Chicago with Amtrak, State, Regional, Local AND 3 separate high speed rail consortium's (Southeast, Gulf Coast and Florida).

BTW, NEW YORK CITY is working to create a "new" PENN STATION with several BILLION dollars of new investment in rail, as I recall it will be a conversion of the former Post Office Building.

SPUWHO QUOTE:
It's a shame they took out the siding to the old FEC HQ when they moved to Jacksonville. While not practical for Amtrak, that would have made a great end of the line for a NE Florida commuter station.

The PV tracks vanished in the 1960's long before anyone thought of moving the Railroad's HQ to Jacksonville. While it might have made a cool terminal for Commuter Rail, it would also have written off all stations south of the HQ. So West St. Augustine, Palm Coast/Bunnell would not be possible without some snarling backup moves midroute. Understand that Amtrak today and railroad's historically  have frowned on backup moves into a station since about 1909 when the text book "Passenger Terminals and Trains," came out. This is important as anyone from our city is likely to hear an argument against this practice tossed at our own JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL. Be sure and tell the doomsday prophets that a mid route back in move is perfectly okay IF the trains are going to be split, enjoined or switched around anyway. JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL is nothing if it is not perhaps the nation's premeir passenger train make-up and break-up point, so "BACK EM IN BOYS!" In fact properly planned that first back up move could be a large part of the split/make up moves that will be required anyhow. They'll come in from New York on a single route, From New Orleans on a single route, and from the Midwest on one of two routes... but they'll head south on THREE routes to Miami, and TWO routes to Tampa, plus a possible Ft. Myers/Naples, and Sarasota/Venice route.

OCKLAWAHA

[Jaxson]

Ock, you are correct about New York's plans to move the passenger rail to the Farley Post Office that is across the street from Madison Square Garden.  The Post Office was built to reflect the architecture of the old Pennsylvania Station.  When the Amtrack facility opens in the post office building, it will be named for the late Senator Patrick Patrick Moynihan.  Senator Moynihan advocated for improving the Amtrak facilities in New York City.  I still shake my head in disappointment when I see old pictures of Pennsylvania Station.  Tearing it down was a bad decision.

[Timkin]

Ok... A few posts back I mentioned Annie being converted to a convention center (with an addition on to the back of the School. Horrible idea?  I thought I heard something about it being eventually moved to the site of the Current Courthouse but I could be mistaken.   Annie should be reused for something quite significant , and maybe  this is not the best use.. Ideas anyone ?