Salvaging The Big Idea I: Kids Kampus & Flex Space

[Steve]

It is actually in the aerial - it is just VERY hard to see.

This lot is used everyday - the players are at the stadium even in the offseason at least a couple times a week for most of the year.  Most teams have a practice facility away from their stadium, but the Jaguars have their entire operation in the stadium, which is rare.  In addition, more than half of that lot is Jaguars employees (not players), that work a regular business week.

Nevertheless, this can be solved very easily - give them a private portion of the garage.  Now, they have prime COVERED parking, and their cars won't be as hot when they leave practive.

[Michael-Lee]

This is an example of why most football stadiums are built in the suburbs. Washington, New York, Dallas, Miami, Arizona. Rarely is a football stadium built right in the core. If it is, it is normally a dome. You need acres of surface parking for an NFL football stadium. People want to tailgate. A few bars and restaurants won't change that. There are a lot of people who won't park in the garage if it were built that close. And how would this plan affect the Ga-Fla game or potential Super Bowls?

[Steve]

The existing garages hold about 1500 people.  A new garage on that site would hold maybe 4000 cars.  Out of a stadium that holds 70,000 people, I'm sure we can find 6,000 that don't want to tailgate.

By the way many new stadiums ARE being built in the core.  Yes, they are domes, but what does that matter. It's still a building that holds 70,000 people.  Detroit has managed to do it, and so has Cleveland, and the Jets new stadium was to be built in Manhattan (that proposal fell through, but it falling through had nothing to do with parking issues).

[Lunican]

Universal Studios in Orlando replaced all of their surface parking with garage parking. Although a new garage at the stadium wouldn't need to be as large unless you were trying to eliminate surface parking completely, it is a good example of a large scale, high volume garage. The entrance to it is at least 4 lanes wide.

There are plenty of creative solutions to these kinds of problems, as shown above. People need to stop viewing these small issues as roadblocks. These are the kinds of ideas that make cities better.

[Lunican]

They turned it into Universal CityWalk. All of that land was previously surface parking lots, including the hotels and waterway.

[thelakelander]

What's wrong with firing up a grill in a park with open green space on game day?  Some would venture to say, a nice urban park next in the stadium district would enhance the tailgating atmosphere.  With the land saved, it could be used for the development of complementing things like sports bars and watering holes that cater to the events taking place in the area.  Then it would be possible for spectors to stay around and enjoy the immediate environment instead of being forced back to I-95 by the JSO.

For the rest of the year, that very same space could be used for a host of events like family reunions, outdoor concerts, movies, festivals, picnics and a central gathering spot for school field trips for children visiting Kids Kampus and other amenities in the area.  It doesn't get any more "family friendly" than that.

[Michael-Lee]

Normally I agree with most things posted on this site. I just don't see how this one is realistic. And I still wonder what affect this would have on the Ga-Fla game and future Super Bowls.

[Steve]

Actually, this would benefit future super bowls.  One of the things that the Mayor has always emphasized was the need for "flex-space".  This accomplishes that.  In addition, this benefits Florida-Georgia, since it adds parking to the area.

It was mentioned above that this area could be parking on gamedays.  The point is that other days it could be used for other things instead of an empty parking lot.

[vicupstate]

Doesn't Metro Park itself classify as Flex Space already.  Other than the Super Bowl, when was a large amount of "Flex Space' required?  I think the need for a massive flex space is non-existant, just like closing off the Main Street Bridge for pedestrians only.  It was a one time situation being extropolated to a permanet situation.  

Also, we need to concentrate on getting nightlife and such in the core of DT first, before we worry about the Sports district.  If we had it to do all over , the entire Sports District would be completely different, but un-muddling it will be far more expensive than   creating the same thing (nightlife/entertainment district) in the core proper.  

[thelakelander]

Good argument.   Metropolitan Park is definately something that's not fully ultilized and could be retrofitted to possibly fulfill the Mayor's flex space demands.  With that being said, it still wouldn't hurt to eventually rid ourselves of a few of the stadium district's surface lots by issuing RFPs for their development.  Right now, it's just wasteland which affects the ultimate potential of what's already there.

Anyway, going back to Michael-Lee's quote about most NFL stadiums being located in the far out suburbs, the list of urban stadiums is rapidly growing.  Cities with NFL stadiums already located close to downtown or in it, include the following:

Cleveland
Detroit
Seattle
Indianapolis
Minneapolis
New Orleans
Atlanta
St. Louis
Pittsburgh
Charlotte
Jacksonville
Chicago
Baltimore

Also a good portion of those stadiums are outdoor and don't have an abundance of surface lots surrounding them.  How do their fans tailgate?

[Michael-Lee]

Seattle has an awesome train that picks people up in the suburbs and drops them off a block from the stadium.

[Told You So]

The hidden agenda has not yet come out. The Mayor wants the 10 acres at Kids Kampus for development by one of his campain contributers. The only way to passify the public was to say  he was moving it over to Friendship Fountain. In reality there would be no movement, the park would be demolished and sold off to a developer friend.
If you wait to see the Friendship Fountain article you'll see he wants to demolish it as well. The fountain is maintained like every other park we have, so it get no maintenance. Two of the three pumps are broken and what was estimated as a repair cost of $80,000 has given our Mayor the excuse to remove it and replace it for his book club members.....what a city, what a Mayor....Four more years of mismanagement!

[STL]

Provocative concept and interesting dialogue.  it might be worth considering a  couple of additional thoughts - to strengthen the public riverfront open space connection, and appropriate management of garages to accomodate game day traffic.

The flex-space in the concept would be stronger if a more acute connection from the flex-space to the Riverfront Metropolitan Park & Kids Kampus properties were made.  The elevated roadway acts as a barrier, and is counter-productive to such a connection - and currently limits the potential of these sites as distinguished, meaningful and accessible public open spaces.  Removing this barrier would enhance this link between stadium activity/flex space and riverfront public open space, and place more (positive) traffic, energy, and life into the streets of the urban grid rather than seeing it pass by overhead.

Positive development potential within this general concept has the potential to be greatly enhanced.

Incidentally, dedicated parking garages for football stadiums aren't ideal in that unlike at theme parks or other urban destinations, they don't accommodate the same-time mass-exodus characteristics of a football crowd.  It's a consideration which can be reasonably mitigated if properly managed.

Good discussion.

[vicupstate]

If Told You So is correct and there is a hidden agenda that dictates that Kids Kampus be moved, there may be a hitch.   In Delaney's first term, he proposed putting an amplitheater in Metro Park.  Because federal funds had been used to build the park there was some problem with doing that.  Seems like the Feds either had to be reimbursed or the park space had to be replaced.  Anyway, it contributed to the death of that idea (though primarily it was due to the opposition from St. Nicholas).  Kids Kampus may be a separate parcel (ie developed later) that is not restricted in that way, but it might be worth looking into.    

[Mark5]

Sorry to bring this up again, but to go back to what michael lee said, that parking lot is hardly the tailgate center of downtown. that particular lot doesnt hold a candle to the fairgrounds and all the grass/dirt lots surrounding the stadium. i frequent jags game and rarely do i see many people tailgating in that lot...besides, maybe they could tailgate on the roof of the parking garage :). as dumb as that sounds it would take up the exact amount of space as normal...who knows, maybe could be for tailgaters only...:)