Can Downtown Survive?

[cityimrov]

I want to love downtown, I really do.  However, I just don't know anymore.  Visiting Downtown is, quite frankly, a major hassle.  

I'll give an alternative - Riverside (5 Pts).  Riverside is a pleasant community where I can walk around and enjoy life.  The people are nice, the restaurants are close, and you just feel welcomed there.  I enjoy spending the evening and winding down there when I have the chance.

Downtown.  If I can sum it up in one word - stress.  I just don't want to deal with it.  Without even talking about parking and wondering if my car will get a ticket or towed, the stress of visiting downtown is very high.  In some ways visiting downtown is a mix of visiting a police state & a fake place trying to make a world by forcing people to act the way they do.  After 9 PM, things just turn downhill from there.  Except for the Art Walk (which is one of the nice rare events there),  Downtown just wants to kick everyone out.  All the buildings lock their doors and...it's just a hassle.  Once of the greatest dreams I want to see is more "sky" restaurants on the top floor of buildings to enjoy the view.  The big problem - security.  It's like there's something so precious in downtown that people want to protect it with all their might.

It's hard to explain but downtown is definitely not Riverside and I just really don't like visiting it even though I really want to.  I don't think Downtown can survive like this no matter how much money is thrown at it unless a major attitude change occurs.  

[Jaxson]

I agree with cityimrov about our failure to turn downtown into a destination for residents and visitors.  I especially agree with cityimrov about our failure to capitalize on what are some really great views from various downtown skyscrapers.  It would be beneficial for us to open an observation deck or rooftop restaurant that would afford people a memorable view. 
What strikes me as sad about downtown is that it could not even support a Starbucks (The one that was in the Lynch Building).  Starbucks is everywhere, for Pete's sake!  This does not bode well for those of us who wish to see downtown overcome its troubles.
In the meantime, it will continue to be a dark and dirty place that sees visitors from time to time but continues to be lost among a zillion suburbs in search of a city...

[tufsu1]

well there was probably 50,000+ people downtown tonight...and everything seemed to go pretty well

[stjr]

well there was probably 50,000+ people downtown tonight...and everything seemed to go pretty well

How many of them live downtown?  shop downtown? work downtown?  visit (actually walk and participate in) downtown more than three times a year?

Like the Jazz Festival, the July 4th fireworks show us a glimmer of what downtown could be.  But, until downtown remains a princess and doesn't revert back to plain ol' Cinderella at midnight, it won't move forward.

[cityimrov]

The 4th of July and other events in downtown is what I call a "fake" downtown.  Everything there gets setup up just before and torn down just after the event.  Yes, Cinderella.  Not only that, the police (not blaming them since they are just following orders from somewhere) & the media sets it up so that it pushes people towards the river and far away from what is the real downtown.  Downtown should be a place where people can enjoy the place, having fun, and slowly walking towards the event.  Hey, even if they miss the event, they at least had fun along the way.  

The downtown that people saw yesterday is a fake, imaginary, made up, and unsustainable place.  It makes people think that downtown is ok when it's isn't.  I'm not even sure how much business, those real permanent business in downtown actually get during events like the 4th.

Downtown during a non-event night.  A nice romantic evening stroll - that doesn't exist except (maybe?) for a very short stroll across The Landing's Riverwalk.  

[Joe]

Downtown certainly has problems. However, I think there's an issue of properly managing expectations regarding Cityimprov's complaints

Jax's "downtown" is still just an office core CBD. Even in some of the most vibrant American and European CBDs, the sidewalks roll up at 5pm and the retail is oriented toward daytime office workers.

Unfortunately, so much of the urban core was raped by urban renewal, we have about 10 square blocks of downtown that isn't parking lots. I think that we - as urban advocates - sometimes have too high of an expectation of what we can do with this one small area of a larger urban core. We want it to be all things to all people: office core, special event center, neighborhood retail destination, regional retail destination, restaurant hub, yuppie neighborhood, nightlife district.

Don't get me wrong - I think certain specific districts within downtown like Bay street and Laura street have this potential. I just hope people realize that a good chunk of the existing CBD will always have a somewhat dead-after-5pm feel. That's just how large office cores are. They are office cores, not entertainment districts.

I also think that with proper mass transit (like the exciting streetcar proposal that has recently been discussed) places like 5 points, san marco, and a revitalized stadium district and main street will become a more integrated part a unified urban core. So while people might find the CBD a bit "stressful" there will still be seamless access to 5 points or main street or bay street - and those will be the pleasant entertainment and retail districts of a unified urban core.

[thelakelander]

I also think that with proper mass transit (like the exciting streetcar proposal that has recently been discussed) places like 5 points, san marco, and a revitalized stadium district and main street will become a more integrated part a unified urban core. So while people might find the CBD a bit "stressful" there will still be seamless access to 5 points or main street or bay street - and those will be the pleasant entertainment and retail districts of a unified urban core.

This is a very important point that should not be overlooked.  We continue to do DT a disservice by isolating a small part of the Northbank from the rest of the urban core.  The ultimate success of the Northbank will rest on the city's ability to package and sell it together with the rest of the urban core (Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, Durkeeville, etc.).  Over time, infill growth (assuming the city makes it a priority) will make the connections between our existing urban core destinations seamless but we'll never move forward in that direction by isolating a few blocks and trying to revitalize them without understanding or accepting how the urban core works from a holistic angle. 

[Jaxson]

@stjr and cityimrov --- I totally agree with you both that, when the smoke clears, downtown Jacksonville turns back into a pumpkin.  I am usually impressed by how many people will cram into downtown (even parking their cars on the Fuller Warren Bridge), how many people will spend roughly 20 minutes watching the fireworks, and then how many people will immediately hurry back to their homes in the 'burbs.  While we deserve cool points for our skill at evacuating downtown, we lose just as many cool points for not having the kind of a gathering point where people will spend more than just 15 minutes to watch a fireworks show.

[heights unknown]

Yes it can survive; if we get the right leadership/leaders and those in power who have the balls, vision, fortitude, and aggressiveness to not be afraid to move downtown, along with the City of Jacksonville forward so that we are on par or even exceed other cities after those achievements come to fruition.  If we hang on to the "good ole boys" way of thinking, and elect leaders who are fearful or nervous of growth, prosperity, and added success for our City, we will never, ever move forward regardless of our feeble masked plans that do nothing but make us a business city at day, and dead as a cemetary at night.

"HU"

[tufsu1]

well there was probably 50,000+ people downtown tonight...and everything seemed to go pretty well

How many of them live downtown?  shop downtown? work downtown?  visit (actually walk and participate in) downtown more than three times a year?

I don't know for sure....but there are about 50,000 workers in the downtown area...the Landing sees 5 million visitors a year....ArtWalk gets 5,000+ people every month....then add the T-U, the Florida Theatre, the Library, the sports complex, and other events (like Jazz Fest)...I bet the number gets real high.

Last night the Landing was packed by 6pm and wait times to get into some of the restaurants were over an hour....as a downtown resident, I'm happy we have these special events but would not like to see those crowds every day.

[mtraininjax]

TUFSU - The problem with downtown is that there are only about 2500 downtown taxpaying residents. You cannot operate downtown 24 x 7 on such a small number. With real estate development down, its hard to see downtown growing much with new residents without new businesses moving back downtown and offering its workers incentives to live downtown.

Fl/ga, super bowl, 4th of july are all great events, but you cannot build downtown on single events, like after 5, you need to see who is left downtown today on the 5th after everyone has left to go to the suburbs.

[Jaxson]

@mtraininjax --- you are right.  special events come and go, but they cannot sustain a healthy downtown jacksonville.  we like to point to those events as 'proof' that downtown is on the move, but fail to address the ongoing perception problems that keep people away from downtown during the rest of the year. 

[comncense]

Good point Jaxson. I think the misconception that Downtown is dangerous after dark keeps alot of people from coming downtown. I've lived Downtown for 3 years and have roamed freely between Adams and Water Street and never had any problems. Yes, more could be done to help solve that perception, but that's not going to change for a while. I think that's something that needs to be solved first. Because with that notion, people won't want to live downtown due to the thoughts of safety concerns. I'd be interested to see the crime rate of the actual downtown area vs. other areas of the city.  I know the media does a good job of lumping Northside/NW  crime with the downtown area.

[ChriswUfGator]

well there was probably 50,000+ people downtown tonight...and everything seemed to go pretty well

How many of them live downtown?  shop downtown? work downtown?  visit (actually walk and participate in) downtown more than three times a year?

I don't know for sure....but there are about 50,000 workers in the downtown area...the Landing sees 5 million visitors a year....ArtWalk gets 5,000+ people every month....then add the T-U, the Florida Theatre, the Library, the sports complex, and other events (like Jazz Fest)...I bet the number gets real high.

Last night the Landing was packed by 6pm and wait times to get into some of the restaurants were over an hour....as a downtown resident, I'm happy we have these special events but would not like to see those crowds every day.

That's only one day a year though. At 9pm on any normal night, it's dead as a doornail.

This is what the OP was saying about a "fake" impression of DT, when people go off pointing out how nice it is during one-time special events, it gives a false impression of how badly DT sucks the other 99.9999999% of the time.

[ChriswUfGator]

Good point Jaxson. I think the misconception that Downtown is dangerous after dark keeps alot of people from coming downtown.

I think many people get frustrated with going downtown because of the asinine parking enforcement situation. Despite there being nothing but empty buildings, bulldozed vacant lots, and closed storefronts everywhere, not to mention a total lack of non-homeless people stretching as far as the eye can see, if you go 5 seconds overtime on a meter then that douchebag with the 70's 'fro and the crappy attitude will be hovering over your car with a ticket ready, as though anyone else really wanted that parking space anyway.

COJ apparently got confused in Econ 101 when it came time to learn how to read a supply/demand curve, since there's no demand for anything down there, but that doesn't stop them from over-supplying parking tickets and meters. LOL, you know how Vermont is the state famous for having more cows than people? Reminds me of Jacksonville's DT, which is going to become famous for having more parking meters than people.

I got sick enough of $25 sandwiches that I quit going down there. And by that I mean a $15 Parking ticket + $10 for a sandwich & soda. It got way too annoying to keep screwing with it. No skin off my teeth, the eats are better over here in R'side anyhow. And, interestingly, despite there being no parking meters to be found anywhere over here, there are 10 times more people out and about than there are in DT at any given time of the day. Hmm...what does that teach us?

Give it time, though. I'm sure tufsu is busily preparing a study for COJ showing that the lack of draconian parking policies over here in R'side is causing total chaos! Something clearly must be done about this terrible problem, it's truly horrifying having all these people everywhere and all these businesses open. Someone save us quick, so we can have that wonderful 40% vacancy rate like downtown...which is about to get even worse when Life of the South leaves because of (you guessed it) the asinine parking situation.