JTA board OKs design contract

[stjr]

So, did JTA and their grant partners consider that for the money, investing these $$ in streetcars might be a better first choice than BRT?  What made them "skip" over streetcars and do BRT first?  I guess Tufsu is going to say once again the money had to be spent on BRT.  But, why do we keep setting up such rigid funding mechanisms that lead to wasteful decisions based on spending money just because it is "free", not because it is the best use of the money?

Will BRT be another Skyway where we build it with Federal handouts and then are stuck locally keeping another underused transit system operating?  One that will give a second black eye to mass transit with local citizens?  One that mass transit advocates here will say would work if we just doubled the system again?

[fsujax]

Streetcars is something that should be funded locally. If you get the feds involved then you have to go through the entire environmental process (NEPA) and it will drag a project out five years or more. Major investment systems like light rail, commuter rail, or BRT is the only type of transit project you want to get FTA involved with. Streetcars can be implemented at a relatively low cost, FTA typically doesnt fund streetcar projects. I believe the only streetcar funded through FTA was a portion of Portlands system.

[tufsu1]

fsujax is on the right "track"...and, as he noted earlier, BRT studies in Jax. started 10 years ago...streetcar is pretty recent....and $10 million won't buy more than about 1.5 miles.

I'm not a huge fan of BRT in general, but this plan is pretty good.

[thelakelander]

The Northbank plan is decent but the Southbank plan is questionable.  BRT will duplicate the skyway's path along that stretch and still not provide reliable service to Baptist or anything south of the FEC tracks.

[spuwho]

At least Ock gets it!

The fact is many cities are doing this "mixed-traffic" BRT thing because it actually is far less expensive than rail...and still much easier to get appoved for funding by FTA

BRT actually on a per passenger mile basis, pollutes more (unless its uses electric catenary) per BTU expended than auto or electric rail. Unless it runs on LNG or some biofuel. Also the roads they run on require more overall maintenance per mile due to the weight of the buses. The maintenance per mile is cheaper than rail on a per event basis, however, you have to perform more maintenance to maintain the comfortable ride.

The average useful life of a heavy/light rail can last up to 30-40 years (Chicago METRA has 50 year old bilevels), but BRT's can only last 10-15 years.

I have seen the advantages of BRT in central Bogota, Colombia and when designed well they can work well. However, I don't think Duval County has a bus oriented culture like in other countries, and so I find BRT a tough sell. Some say the buses are empty because they don't go where they want, some say they are empty because they won't want to participate in the bus culture. (ie: waiting at stop, knowing your routes). In this case, even if it provided 15 minute service to Cecil Commerce from the city, no one would use it.

IMHO, I see BRT here as a political patronage jobs engine. It uses the two methods JTA loves, buses and new roads. That means more mechanics, more road contracts, more drivers, more project managers.

I can relate to JTA's position, as long as the city seems to allow development in a shotgun fashion, buses are the most flexible way to meet the needs, but unless the BRT routes have some flexibility into something more permanent, its a boondoggle.

[TheProfessor]

BRT should link the beach to downtown I would hope?

[tufsu1]

The Northbank plan is decent but the Southbank plan is questionable.  BRT will duplicate the skyway's path along that stretch and still not provide reliable service to Baptist or anything south of the FEC tracks.

I agree with you Lake.

spuwho...while it is true that long-term rail costs may be cheaper, the start up costs are far more than this plan (which is about $2-3 million per mile)...also note that the project in question is not really BRT (at least not yet)...but more like bus transit infrastructure....it includes things like dedicated lanes, signal priority, bus shelters, passenger amenities, digital schedules w/ bus arrival information, and ticket vending machines...all of which will make the existing JTA bus system more efficient and effective.

[Ocklawaha]

Lake, TUFSU, FSUJAX, and Yours Truly, all seem to be on the same page on this one. Rail is hands down the favored choice of citizens everywhere and it is cheaper to maintain and longer lived then BRT, but you wouldn't want a railroad yard in your garage. In other words, each mode has it's place and BRT is the BEST CHOICE when it comes to a Bus Connection for our future Rail Systems. Recently someone told me I seem to "want it all and want it NOW!"  Fact is I know we MUST do this incrementally but one must keep in mind the future system is made up of it's sum parts, and frankly, I don't give a rats ass which links get built first... JUST DO IT!  Do it right, and do it now, and consider that whatever we are doing must soon fit into the grand scheme of regional transit. In this case BRT does exactly that. 

When I ride that Commuter Train in from WGV and step off at the Avenues, I'll look forward to having a nice, new, BRT bus waiting at the station to take me to Regency or the Beaches. If I get off in San Marco, I'm planning to use that Skyway to get to the Landing. When I'm headed for 5-Points I'll detrain at Jacksonville Terminal and hop the next streetcar. This is how it works folks, it's how it has always worked, it's time for Jacksonville and it's "Transit-Virgins" to come of age. Consider that JTA is making an improvement that lays a foundation through the most congested cross roads of Duval, DOWNTOWN JACKSONVILLE. Bravo!

NOTES:
Professor? You are 100% right on target.
Spuwho? Pleeease don't cheer Tranmileno, it's a freaking failure as a trunk line, thus Bogota is building RAIL!


OCKLAWAHA