Outer Beltway Update

[north miami]

    Inside Outside

I just couldn't subscribe to the big city view
that the metropolis is good for you
You can't resist,the city affects you like this:
Cars jammin',the scammin',heads hangin'
Outside!
Clay & St. Johns!...you are on my mind tonight!!
Outside!...get me out of this big city
Outside! I'm going inside Outside!
You've got to live like you know it-show it
Don't go with the flow,check your soul
Check the Bible,and Chamber "Quality of Life" pamphlet you know
Taking a chance,exploring eccentricities,checking possibilities
Outside! Almost in!
Get me out of this big fat city!
I leave the dark of Duval,for the light and promise of something pretty
I've been waiting for you
When the morning comes,the mourning comes
For what we saw and were sold,inside Outside
is not what we got
They have been waiting
We got the urge to think on the Outside,having discovered the possibilities
For us,"No Growth" becomes our eccentricity
Don't go with the flow,follow your bliss
To Know Growth will affect you like this
And check the county Comp Plan,you know
The Planners & Consultants just can't subscribe
to the view that 'no growth' is good for you
They don't know it-the landscape shows it
Clay & St.Johns have been waiting for you:
"You can't resist,don't raise your fist-we promise our next development will no longer affect you like this.....cars jammin',scammin...Hey,our heads ain't yet hangin'!!
You've taken a chance
You Know Growth inside out....new found clout
It is only planned harmonic boundaries that surrounds dotted lines, DRI and Sector Plan
Inside Outside
When you know the history,it's not hard to solve the mystery:
Even if you escape the big fat city
I say "Oh,what a pity!"
Because the way to relate
Inside Outside
Is to love what you hate
And there is no middle ground inside Outside

-N.Miami
Based in part on lyrics "Outside,Almost In" Planet Earth rec. and decades of experience

[north miami]

   Inside Outside

I just couldn't subscribe to the big city view
that the metropolis is good for you
You can't resist,the city affects you like this:
Cars jammin',the scammin',heads hangin'
Outside!
Clay & St. Johns!...you are on my mind tonight!!
Outside!...get me out of this big city
Outside! I'm going inside Outside!
You've got to live like you know it-show it
Don't go with the flow,check your soul
Check the Bible,and Chamber "Quality of Life" pamphlet you know
Taking a chance,exploring eccentricities,checking possibilities
Outside! Almost in!
Get me out of this big fat city!
I leave the dark of Duval,for the light and promise of something pretty
I've been waiting for you
When the morning comes,the mourning comes
For what we saw and were sold,inside Outside
is not what we got
They have been waiting
Wanting a difference
We got the urge to think on the Outside,having discovered the possibilities
For us,"No Growth" becomes our eccentricity
Don't go with the flow,follow your bliss
To Know Growth will affect you like this
And check the county Comp Plan,you know
The Planners & Consultants just can't subscribe
to the view that 'no growth' is good for you
They don't know it-the landscape shows it
Clay & St.Johns have been waiting for you:
"You can't resist,don't raise your fist-we promise our next development will no longer affect you like this.....cars jammin',scammin...Hey,our heads ain't yet hangin'!!
You've taken a chance
You Know Growth inside out....new found clout
It is only planned harmonic boundaries that surrounds dotted lines, DRI and Sector Plan
Inside Outside
When you know the history,it's not hard to solve the mystery:
Even if you escape the big fat city
I say "Oh,what a pity!"
Because the way to relate
Inside Outside
Is to love what you hate
And there is no middle ground inside Outside

-N.Miami
Based in part on lyrics "Outside,Almost In" Planet Earth rec. and decades of experience

[stjr]

My fear is if some group pours a bunch of money into this they will fight commuter rail fearing people won't be paying their tolls.

...or not be asked to build all those feeder roads into the Outer Beltway's interchanges.  I mean FDOT and JTA, both of which are engineered to do that versus build commuter rail or any other mass transit with gusto and are just looking for excuses to maintain the status quo.

[tufsu1]

...or not be asked to build all those feeder roads into the Outer Beltway's interchanges.  I mean FDOT and JTA, both of which are engineered to do that versus build commuter rail or any other mass transit with gusto and are just looking for excuses to maintain the status quo.

If FDOT only wanted to build roads, why would they fund studies and construction for things like TriRail, SunRail, AMTRAK/FEC, etc?

I'm sorry, I just can't work in aboslutes.

[tufsu1]

well part of their job is to respond to community requests, right?

I think I know FDOT well enough to know that there are plenty of folks (both in Tallahassee and in the district offices) that are very interested in rail.

[stjr]

...or not be asked to build all those feeder roads into the Outer Beltway's interchanges.  I mean FDOT and JTA, both of which are engineered to do that versus build commuter rail or any other mass transit with gusto and are just looking for excuses to maintain the status quo.

If FDOT only wanted to build roads, why would they fund studies and construction for things like TriRail, SunRail, AMTRAK/FEC, etc?

I'm sorry, I just can't work in aboslutes.

Tufsu, where is the "absolute" term in my post?  I don't see words like "all", "none", or "only".  What are you referring to?

By the way, what good is a "study" if it doesn't lead to the necessary results?  Let's compare the results from road "studies" with those of mass transit "studies"?  Which, over the years, has FDOT spent most of its monies turning into reality?

In Northeast Florida, what proportion of FDOT's capital and operating budgets goes for mass transit versus roads?  Or, for that matter, statewide?  Maybe the only thing that is "absolute" is that I am "absolutely" on point!  

Follow the money...

[tufsu1]

stjr...no matter how pro-transit we get in Florida, roads will still get more money...for one simple reason....even in transit-friendly regions like NYC and DC, the road systems serve way more people.

[stjr]

stjr...no matter how pro-transit we get in Florida, roads will still get more money...for one simple reason....even in transit-friendly regions like NYC and DC, the road systems serve way more people.

Maybe, Tufsu, but what should a reasonable ratio be?  Is it roads to mass transit of 95/5?  80/20? 60/40?  My suspicion is it is closer to 95/5 than 50/50 but why don't you tell us for sure?

I went to FDOT's web site where I found listings of hundreds of road projects UNDER CONSTRUCTION OR CLOSE TO IT.  Only thing about rail I could find was a vaguely written 73 page (could have been summed up in one page!) puff piece called "The 2009 Florida Rail System Plan: Policy Element" * that was full of nebulous TALK (BS?, Lip service?) about what would be desirable between now and 2025.  Not one clearly spoken specific detail about rail coming to a neighborhood near you.

Apparently, the FDOT produces these puff pieces on an ongoing basis.  They have ones for 2000, 2002, 2004, and 2006 posted as well.  Here is a section from Page 7, "Executive Summary", from the 2000 report:

3. A Transportation System that
Enhances Florida's Economic
Competitiveness
· Implement a coordinated intermodal planning approach.
· Continue to identify port, airport, rail and transit
infrastructure needs.
· Work with transportation authorities to implement improved
regional transit and rail services.
· Progress the recently completed comprehensive analysis of
need and implementation opportunities for intercity
passenger rail service.
· Continue to implement the High Speed Rail program.
· Improve ground access routes to major intermodal facilities,
freight distribution centers and military installations.

4. A Transportation System that
Enhances the Quality of Life in
Florida
· Continue to support and improve the South Florida Rail
Corridor.
· Promote modal alternatives and connections.
· Design multi-purpose corridors that use medians for
intercity or regional rail lines, and have designated lanes for
specific uses.
· Work with MPOs and local governments to fund
transportation alternatives.

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publications/Plans/2000/2000%20Florida%20Rail%20Plan.pdf

Notice the absence of the word "build" in these goals.  In the 10 years since this report, what new projects have materialized for Northeast Florida?  I say it looks like talk-talk-talk.

Like I said, roads over mass transit by a tidal wave.

* See: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/PlanDevel/Documents/2009PolicyElementoftheRailSystemPlan-webfinal.pdf

[stjr]

By the way,  I did stumble on this project:  Bus Shelters paid by FDOT for Weston, FL.  So, why not us?

http://www2.dot.state.fl.us/fmsupportapps/workprogram/Support/WPItemRept.aspx?RF=WP&IT=425120&IS=1&RP=SCHD

[Ocklawaha]

...or not be asked to build all those feeder roads into the Outer Beltway's interchanges.  I mean FDOT and JTA, both of which are engineered to do that versus build commuter rail or any other mass transit with gusto and are just looking for excuses to maintain the status quo.

If FDOT only wanted to build roads, why would they fund studies and construction for things like TriRail, SunRail, AMTRAK/FEC, etc?

I'm sorry, I just can't work in aboslutes.

While I'd agree that we have a "new crop" of recent converts to rail in various Florida offices, the balance of power is still such that rail gets "studied" while highways get "built". I'll concede that we're getting Sunrail, but remember they wanted it at the cost of Tri-Rail! Meanwhile the HSR route is a money grab and NOTHING else.

If FDOT wanted rail, and if FDOT listened to the citizens, it would be FLORIDA that:

Owned and operated METROLINK with 145 daily trains, in 32 cycles, covering 8,500 miles a day, in South Florida!
Owned and operated CALTRAIN with 35,041 daily riders on the St. Petersburg/Clearwater peninsular!
Owned and operated AMTRAK CALIFORNIA with with 12 trains and 5,300 daily riders through the heart of Florida!
Owned and operated the SURFLINERS with 24 daily trains between Jacksonville and Miami on the East Coast!
Owned and operated the COASTERS expanding to 72 trains daily between Miami and Tampa!
Owned and operated the ALTAMONTE EXPRESS with 4 daily trains between Jacksonville and Pensacola!
Owned and operated the SOUNDER'S with 9,000 daily riders between Jacksonville and Gainesville!
Owned and operated the CAROLINA CORRIDOR with 4 daily trains connecting Jacksonville and Ft. Myers Coast!

But guess what?

The ONE train our state sponsored is now dead and gone, and our Amtrak services have been cut from 12 daily trains to 2...  

Some desire these people!


OCKLAWAHA

[SightseerLounge]

The ONE train our state sponsored is now dead and gone, and our Amtrak services have been cut from 12 daily trains to 2... 

Some desire these people![/b]

The powers that be won't have you with too many commuter rail lines. The aliens think that is a bad idea. HAHAHA!

Ocklawaha, what was the "one train?" What were the 12 daily trains?

With the Outer Beltway, they should build it to Tampa like they were going to do. At least, the speed traps will be eliminated!

[thelakelander]

The future of the Outer Beltway is occurring in Greenville, SC right now.  Will we be too stubborn to learn from their mistakes?

Southern Connector toll road files for bankruptcy
http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20100624/BUSINESS/100624007/1004/NEWS01/Southern-Connector-toll-road-files-for-bankruptcy-

[Ocklawaha]

The train that we sponsored was the "SILVER PALM" which flashed between Tampa and Miami then vanished. The name was later used on a longer overnight train that was also ill fated.

The others?

The CHAMPION - NY-Tpa
The Miamian - NY-Mia
The Palmetto - NY-JAX (extended to Miami/Tampa and killed)
The Vacationer - NY-Mia
The Florida Special - NY-Mia
The Floridian - Chi-Mia/Tpa
The South Wind - Chi-Mia/Tpa

all of the above X 2 for Jacksonville and some of them x 6 as they split here daily making for three arrivals and three departures. So calling it 12 is being generous.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Maybe, Tufsu, but what should a reasonable ratio be?  Is it roads to mass transit of 95/5?  80/20? 60/40?  My suspicion is it is closer to 95/5 than 50/50 but why don't you tell us for sure?

well today it is 80/20....I would guess that in the next 5-10 years, Florida (and the rest of the U.S.) will see something closer to 75-25....and I doubt we'll ever move beyond a 70-30 ratio in regards to state/federal funding.

As for what FDOT is thinking about long-term, check out the 2060 Plan currently underway

http://www.2060ftp.org/

And, finally to Ock's comments....come on, man, you knopw as well as I do that there are far more people in this state that think transit (especially rail) is an absolute waste of $....even "transit supporters" call HSR a mickey mouse train or rat rail.

[north miami]

My fear is if some group pours a bunch of money into this they will fight commuter rail fearing people won't be paying their tolls.

...or not be asked to build all those feeder roads into the Outer Beltway's interchanges.  I mean FDOT and JTA, both of which are engineered to do that versus build commuter rail or any other mass transit with gusto and are just looking for excuses to maintain the status quo.

A pure Beltway vision that does not include concurrent corridor development land use changes, vesting/"Economic development" would never be tolerated because key corridor land owners have been the primary driver.