Consolidated Government's Effect on Downtown. Affordable Urban Core Housing Issues

[hillary supporter]

I just don't see how this is a political argument?  Charlotte and Orlando's(two peer cities) downtown core are experiencing a rebirth... and they didn't get their b/c of the political party of the mayor in office, rather the policies they put into place to foster development of their downtown(s).

I think these two examples work because business was successfull in venturing to the downtown areas. For whatever reasons, business has been successfull in these downtown areas. In Jacksonville the 95 south corriddor has offered great financhial benefits to major companies, even to the point of relocation from downtown. With even cheaper rates and incentives since meltdown 08.
My term of conservative policy is based along free market, minimal govt intervention of economical (business) development.
My term of liberal policy is govt intervention, highly regulated, along the lines of social policy (residential development) .
Its realistic to conclude that true policy will be a mixture of both, but , IMO, towards overall development of DT, we would need a heavily leaning liberal (Keyesian) policy geared socially towards residental growth as current residental DT presence has been a failure.

[tufsu1]

Because downtown does not offer a standard of living comparable to ANY peer cities... nor even its own surrounding neighborhoods.  

as a downtown resident, I completely disagree...I'm not sure there is another part of Jax. I would want to live in...on any given day, I can walk to the library and a bookstore, riverfront restaurants, shows, and sporting events....where else can you do that?

btw...for those who think downtown is overpriced now, just wait until it is actually a fully vibrant place....you won't find apartments for less than $1200 and condos/townhomes for less than $400,000

[tufsu1]

Let me ask you TUFSU, what neighborhood to you dine out in most often?  Excluding lunches.

well since my office isn't downtown, lunch is hardly ever here...dinner, on the other hand, is downtown more often than not.

and thanks for saying you loved living downtown Stephen....clearly there is room for improvement, but some on this site seem to imply that downtown is enirely unlivable...and while maybe not the best place to raise a small child, several young families w/ kids living at the Parks show it isn't impossible.

[hillary supporter]

I really dont know much about the city owned housing stock but it seems like renovating them, with the army of unemployed trades people living in Duval County would be a great place to start, then just charge tenants rent based on what it would cost to maintain the properties.  DT needs working class people badly!

^ That sounds good to me.  The city owns enough property for it.

Exactly, this is what i was suggesting, supplemented by obama dollars . Rent would be adjusted by income which would cover maintainace costs minimum.

[fieldafm]

I really dont know much about the city owned housing stock but it seems like renovating them, with the army of unemployed trades people living in Duval County would be a great place to start, then just charge tenants rent based on what it would cost to maintain the properties.  DT needs working class people badly!

^ That sounds good to me.  The city owns enough property for it.

Exactly, this is what i was suggesting, supplemented by obama dollars . Rent would be adjusted by income which would cover maintainace costs minimum.

Well, we are doing something similar to that now with the Off The Grid project(something that has proven to work in other urban communities)... giving artists unoccupied spaces rent free while they agree to pay utilities/etc.
My question about an idea to give trades people rent free homes downtown is.... where would they work?  There isnt necessarily a huge demand for that type of labor currently. 

How exactly would these scenarios benefit downtown?  I don't ask sarcastically, I really am curious to the reasoning behind your views?

TuFSU, I genuinely wanted to live downtown on two seperate occassions.  I'm downtown quite a bit in the evenings(not so much during the weekdays as I work on the Southside).  But, I can ride my bike into town in a few minutes and yet still live in a neighborhood that offers amenities downtown simply doesn't.  Would I like someday for it to be advantageous to move downtown?  Yes, at which point I would move in a heartbeat.  But however much I love spending time downtown(I genuinely do), I find it MUCH better to live in one of the surrounding urban neighborhoods.

If we had a downtown even rivaling Orlando... there is no question I would make the move.  But unfortunately, we are not Orlando, Charlotte, etc. 

[duvaldude08]

I really don't know much about the city owned housing stock but it seems like renovating them, with the army of unemployed trades people living in Duval County would be a great place to start, then just charge tenants rent based on what it would cost to maintain the properties.  DT needs working class people badly!

^ That sounds good to me.  The city owns enough property for it.

Exactly, this is what i was suggesting, supplemented by obama dollars . Rent would be adjusted by income which would cover maintainace costs minimum.

Well, we are doing something similar to that now with the Off The Grid project(something that has proven to work in other urban communities)... giving artists unoccupied spaces rent free while they agree to pay utilities/etc.
My question about an idea to give trades people rent free homes downtown is.... where would they work?  There isnt necessarily a huge demand for that type of labor currently. 

How exactly would these scenarios benefit downtown?  I don't ask sarcastically, I really am curious to the reasoning behind your views?

TuFSU, I genuinely wanted to live downtown on two seperate occassions.  I'm downtown quite a bit in the evenings(not so much during the weekdays as I work on the Southside).  But, I can ride my bike into town in a few minutes and yet still live in a neighborhood that offers amenities downtown simply doesn't.  Would I like someday for it to be advantageous to move downtown?  Yes, at which point I would move in a heartbeat.  But however much I love spending time downtown(I genuinely do), I find it MUCH better to live in one of the surrounding urban neighborhoods.

If we had a downtown even rivaling Orlando... there is no question I would make the move.  But unfortunately, we are not Orlando, Charlotte, etc. 

We are not Orlando or Chalotte, however we can get there. Both of their downtowns were dead for a very long time as well. And Actually my friend that's stays in orlando says that the downtown is still pretty much empty, especially at night. Then to Charlotte, Bank of America was a key componet of the revitilization of their downtown. And we dont have a coporation with that type of moo-la here. So lets stop comparing and just work on Jacksonville. I think we too often compare Jacksonville to ther cities too much.

[fieldafm]

So lets stop comparing and just work on Jacksonville. I think we too often compare Jacksonville to ther cities too much.

I think they are especially relevant b/c we are one of the last few major cities in the country that havent caught up to the new urbanist revilatilization sweeping the country.  As Lake continually says, we just have to look at what works elsewhere and try to apply those same succesful principles here.  We don't have to reinvent the wheel.

That's what this site is all about.

[acme54321]

I think what other similar cities are doing is totally relevant.  Why spend energy figuring out how to do something when someone else has already successfully blazed the trail?   

[duvaldude08]

So lets stop comparing and just work on Jacksonville. I think we too often compare Jacksonville to ther cities too much.

I think they are especially relevant b/c we are one of the last few major cities in the country that havent caught up to the new urbanist revilatilization sweeping the country.  As Lake continually says, we just have to look at what works elsewhere and try to apply those same succesful principles here.  We don't have to reinvent the wheel.

That's what this site is all about.

Agreed. But I say that because every city has their own unique situation. For example, Orlando's downtown might have had different issues than we do in regard to why the DT died or wasnt as vibrant as it could have been. For example, we know that the consilidation in 1968 is what zapped our DT area, and lack of attention by leadership over decades. But whose to say that was orlando's and charolettes issue? It is definately ok to model ourselves after other cities, however we have to get to the root of OUR problems in order to be sucessful. Hope that makes sense.

[hillary supporter]

It is definitely ok to model ourselves after other cities, however we have to get to the root of OUR problems in order to be successful. Hope that makes sense.

On the bullseye. I believe OUR problem is lack of residential presence. As noted earlier, as successfully as Orlando's endeavor is, its very quiet at night. We ve tried to introduce residency to DT but its failed up to now. Perhaps because private development doesn't have the resources of the municipality. Those developers of the failing skyscrapers wont cater to jax market conditions because they accept a fate of filing bankruptcy and turning over the liability to the banks who financed the construction. Then the banks will board up the buildings and solicit an investor to purchase the buildings trying to take as little a loss as possible. Thats when the skyscraper is boarded up and sits in limbo until the mortgagee gets just the right price. Time is of no factor, losses are written off taxes and corporations have immortality. Stephen is right that the economy is the leading factor in just  a scenario.

Meh.  It doesnt really have anything to do with political ideology.  In fact, thats bunkum.

The idea of serious low income public housing has historically been enacted by democratic leaders. In todays political spectrum, i cant imagine anything close to this idea coming from a republican mayor of Jacksonville. And the main reason is that the situation today of a metropolitan Jacksonville , without a cultural center in DT is agreeable with a majority of Jacksonville voters. Moved forward by the 2 republican administrations, the only republican mayors elected since reconstruction. Dont fix the clock if it aint broken.

[Wacca Pilatka]

And the main reason is that the situation today of a metropolitan Jacksonville , without a cultural center in DT is agreeable with a majority of Jacksonville voters. Moved forward by the 2 republican administrations, the only republican mayors elected since reconstruction. Dont fix the clock if it aint broken.

I certainly wouldn't disagree as to the Peyton administration, but I'm curious as to what specific reasons you have for concluding this about the Delaney administration.  From my outside perspective, Delaney was pro-urban core and gave it far more than just lip service, and seemed to get high marks for his dedication to smart growth principles from all over the political spectrum.

Of course, I wholeheartedly agree that it will take real leadership to overcome a majority indifference or aversion to urban core revitalization.

Also, as to low income public housing--again, just out of curiosity as to your idea--are you specifically referring to Section 8?  Workforce housing with subsidies/tax credits/other incentives to developers to allow for market-rate rents?  A mix of the two like the Hope IV in Brentwood?

[fieldafm]

I guess I have to disagree with one statement... downtown Orlando has WAY more restaurants, bars, and clubs than Jacksonville.  Nightime streetlife in DT Orlando is about three times that of Jacksonville.
DT Orlando has about a 10 block core that is VERY walkable, and the fruits of that accessibility can be seen both at night and during the day.

Hillary... why again would housing projects revitalize downtown Jacksonville?  I don't think I seem to understand the correlation of your answer about builders willing to foreclose on projects and how that relates to adding more Section 8 housing downtown as an answer to the core's problems.  I really am curious about your idea.

[Ocklawaha]

Mass transit + MIX = Explosive economic change.

Put that in your notes under OCKLAMATH...


OCKLAWAHA

[hillary supporter]

Hillary... why again would housing projects revitalize downtown Jacksonville?  I don't think I seem to understand the correlation of your answer about builders willing to foreclose on projects and how that relates to adding more Section 8 housing downtown as an answer to the core's problems.  I really am curious about your idea.
Posted on: Today at 02:36:58 PM

Housing projects would bring downtown residents, which in my opinion, is the problem with development DT. I have conceded that business presence in DT is not going to happen at this time. Free market standards are failing to bring residents DT as pointed out by many of the posters. City govt has not been able to lure commerical entities to provide services for the residents because said entities dont want to risk on a venture with no residents today.

[Jaxson]

I am not sure about Section 8 housing, but it would be nice to have more diverse housing choices downtown...