Before & After: Rail Spurs Economic Development

[JeffreyS]

Perhaps some Amshak pictorial bombs to let people know what our officials are trying to show off when people pull into the station labeled Jacksonville.  It is shameful that we have this beautiful historic train station and we do not have the stop there.

[stjr]

I could not believe when I heard the boneheaded suggestion from one of the JTA retards that the only way to make the Amtrak station make sense would be to build transit out to the remote location.

Uhhh...JTA...that same agency that dreamed up the Skyway, created a poorly conceived plan to use ads to build bus shelters it should have built decades ago, supports the outer beltway and 9B, will need 3 tries and over $100 million to maybe get I-95 and JTB right, has plans for a mess of an intermodal transit center, runs a third class bus system, refuses to post updated financials on its web site, specializes in providing misleading information and creating mistaken understandings, thinks nothing of conflicts of interest, and gives lip service to real mass transit service?  That JTA?

[thelakelander]

It would be nice to get some of the mayoral candidate's positions on this issue.  Quite frankly, if JTA can't take care of business, someone else should.  There is simply no reason that we should not be able to pay to relocate the station downtown BEFORE the FEC/Amtrak trains start running again.  Whether its going after grants, earmarks or changing the phasing priorities of the transportation center, we should be able to get a station back downtown for a minimal cost.  After all, we're not talking about rebuilding interchanges or highway overpasses here.

Amtrak Pacific Surfliner Burbank Airport Station


Amtrak Pacific Surfliner Van Nuys Station


Does anyone believe we can't afford to construct something like these examples above (in addition to using some space inside the Prime Osborn)?  Need money? How about taking another $1 million or so from the Metropolitan Park funds?

[Ocklawaha]

Lake you or Stephen could probably photo shop this, but consider the downtown location as is:

1. Add 2 tracks and 1 platform (covered butterfly shed) atop the fill and end them at the viaduct. Since current rail traffic will always leave heading west, the stub tracks serve to return the station downtown.

2. Immediate Concourse, UNDER the viaduct to the end of the tracks provides for a circutious walkway to the start of a platform running from the concourse west 2,000 ft. +/-.

3. The original Ticket area is VACANT, I'd capture that and the "Colored Waiting Room" (it has a pretty ceiling) as the current station, and use the BAY STREET ENTRY.

------------------------------------------------------------

INTERIM:

4.  Expand to 3 additional platforms with 6 new boarding tracks bringing the total up to 8

5.  Remove blockage and reopen boarding tunnel and concourse, including whatever rebuilding might be needed to patch things up. (things COJ destroyed).

6.  Remove Viaduct and raise the clearance to 23'6" across all 8 tracks + 2 FEC tracks (without platforms)

7.  Replace connection for all 8 tracks with the FEC east of LEE STREET viaduct site.

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HOMECOMING:

DING DONG THE PRIME IS DEAD! Move that Convention Center sucker out of the middle of JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL.

8.  Raze the Convention "exhibit halls" except for the new East-West Concourse running from the 1919 Headhouse to the West Parking lots.

9.  Convert former hall space into a first class GREYHOUND and TOUR BUS facility (and PLEASE don't sell out to one carrier! We could have several more {SEE NOTE}*.)

10.  Reopen total 1919 headhouse as "JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL".

LASTLY - Find the guy that came up with the clever "Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center" title, which has all of the appeal of a full rectal lobotomy, and hang him/her with piano wire.


OCKLAWAHA

* NOTE:
http://www.ny.com/frame?url=http://www.bonanzabus.com/&frame=/frame/travel.html (passing thru daily)
http://www.ny.com/frame?url=http://www.martztrailways.com/&frame=/frame/travel.html  (passing thru daily)
http://www.coachusa.com/ (already in town)
http://www.coachamericanc.com/ (already in town)
http://www.lacubanabus.com/ (really close)
http://www.southeasternstages.com/Home.html (really close)
and guess who is rebuilding a nationwide network AGAIN?
http://www.trailways.com/press/articles/Express%20Trailways.asp

[thelakelander]

We should attempt to sketch this up and run your idea as a front page article.  Perhaps it will serve as a swift kick in the rear end for this city and JTA.

[Ocklawaha]

Let's do it, the 3 phases of JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL'S rebirth!

OCKLAWAHA

[fieldafm]

Really thought-provoking article Lake.  Thank you.

Also, any thread with O Brother Where Art Thou referances get an A+ in my book.

[Captain Zissou]

"You can't run on 'reform' with a d@mn incumbent"!

One of my favorite movies ever. 

'Well ain't this place a geographical oddity? Two weeks from everywhere!"

Pete- "Who elected you leader of this outfit?"
Ulysses- "Well Pete, the leader should be the one of us who's capable of abstract thought"

[AaroniusLives]

Awesome article with amazing visuals and descriptions.

But - there are too many proven outcomes here.  I guarantee you detractors and JTA officials alike (aren't they one and the same?) will still bend over backwards and invert themselves to try to come up with plenty of excuses as to why that won't work and shouldn't/can't happen here.

For the rest of us in reality, this is inspiring.

Doctor K, I think it's pretty much indisputable that rail transit spurs economic development; indeed, the two are usually linked via government legislation: that in order to build rail, the government grants development rights that increase the density around the rail stations, thus helping pay for the system and in creating more tax revenue off less land. That's nearly a given at this point. If the idiots at JTA don't realize this, you have much larger problems than a board of directors that don't want rail.

What I do find interesting, however, is that while rail transit usually is legislated to spur transit-oriented, dense development, it doesn't necessarily translate into increased ridership on the rail transit next to said transit-oriented development.

For example, as a former magnet-school attendee in Miami, I took the Kendall Area Transit bus to the Dadeland North MetroFail station and on to downtown. What they've done over there is remarkable; it used to be a sea of concrete next to a mall, and now it's a great "fake downtown" with MetroFail access. It looks better. It makes better use of the space. It offers mass transit...that less people are actually taking than they did when the area was just a parking lot. That's true of the Channelside District in Tampa as well. It seems that people want to live in a walkable, liveable, dense area, but that transit isn't exactly necessary to make the area successful. Boca Raton's Mizner Park, which essentially created a dense downtown out of a mall, and spurred development outside of it's original boundaries to give Boca a pretty damned viable downtown, doesn't have rail transit. Atlanta's Atlantic Station, another TOD infill development was and is criticized for being nowhere near MARTA...and yet, it's a success.

A great deal of this has to do with incomplete links in the transit system. For example, I suspect that the new residents of "Downtown Dadeland" would take the Miami MetroFail if it went to places they wanted to go: if Coconut Grove wasn't 2 miles from the "Coconut Grove" station, if it went to the goddamned beach, if it did more than beeline to downtown (and if it wasn't such a poorly maintained s*&thole of a system.) The same is true of Tampa's streetcar as well: it doesn't really "go" anywhere.

(I've purposefully left Washington's Metro out of the comparison because it's such an expensive, vanity system that it's almost not fair to include it in the mix. Of course Metro spurs development: aside from the obvious legislation that enables that development, it's an expensive, modern, clean and shiny system. It costs kazillions of dollars to build it, kazillions to maintain it, kazillions to expand it. It totally works, it's totally awesome, and it's a few kazillions away from anything Jacksonville will get in terms of money on it's mass transit system.)

For me, I think complete linkage is the key to overall success: that the different nodes of transit need to link to one another so that the option of taking mass transit over a personal automobile is viable. If the transit system doesn't go where people need it to go, whether it's rail or bus or donkey is a moot point. And if you create a dense, walkable, viable community next to rail that nobody uses, you've only proven that people like TOD...they may not like your transit system because it doesn't complete the circle.

Again, not a detractor: I believe in mass transit...but dense development is not always a guarantee for transit use. A system that everyone can use is. Let's say MetroJacksonville gets enough momentum to build a rail line in Jacksonville. The county-city will legislate dense TOD along the line, which will help defray the cost of the line and "justify" it to the bean counters. But, if it's not the backbone of a completely linked transit system, it won't be used, won't meet ridership expectations, and will act as the SkyWay does (or MARTA or the MetroFail,) as a physical example of why mass transit shouldn't be invested in.

What I utterly adore about this site (as someone who literally doesn't live there) is how intelligent the posters are here. There's the rare "I dig skyscrapers and trains so build it" post; most of y'all get the idea of transit and how it should work, and how it should work for y'all. That's just effin' awesome.

[Captain Zissou]

I know this message has been reiterated over and over again, but rail is a capital investment in the infrastructure of a city, an overpass is not. 

To me, Jax is like one of those honda civics that the owner spent 5 grand on to put chrome accent pieces everywhere, a new exhaust pipe, 12 inch woofers, a non functional spoiler, fake air vents, spinners, and a dragon decal on.... when they could have put the 5 grand towards buying a BMW or volvo without the non-functional bells and whistles.

When Jax has 14 lane highways and more overpasses than you can shake a stick at, how will we be better off??  We'll be able to get from the Arby's in Jax Beach to the Wendy's in 5 points in 12 minutes, but there will be nothing of significance in between.  Stop with the short sited patchwork 'improvements' (transit to the Amshak), and start inversting in something that will have a positive effect on our city as a whole. 

aaronious, great argument.  I haven't researched it, but I believe you in that just because something is a TOD, it doesn't mean the residents will use the transit.  What I say is, what difference does it make?  If a $100 million dollar investment in rail spurs $600 million in dense, walkable TODs, who cares if they hop on the train??  That's a 600% return on the city's money in development for the price of an overpass.  stjr would jump all over it for being inefficient and a waste, but I see it as a net positive.

[thelakelander]

What I do find interesting, however, is that while rail transit usually is legislated to spur transit-oriented, dense development, it doesn't necessarily translate into increased ridership on the rail transit next to said transit-oriented development.

I believe another factor is walkability.  Once you get up to a certain level of density and decent street interaction, the pedestrian mode of travel (the greenest of all) becomes dominant.

[thelakelander]

For me, I think complete linkage is the key to overall success: that the different nodes of transit need to link to one another so that the option of taking mass transit over a personal automobile is viable. If the transit system doesn't go where people need it to go, whether it's rail or bus or donkey is a moot point. And if you create a dense, walkable, viable community next to rail that nobody uses, you've only proven that people like TOD...they may not like your transit system because it doesn't complete the circle.

Again, not a detractor: I believe in mass transit...but dense development is not always a guarantee for transit use. A system that everyone can use is. Let's say MetroJacksonville gets enough momentum to build a rail line in Jacksonville. The county-city will legislate dense TOD along the line, which will help defray the cost of the line and "justify" it to the bean counters. But, if it's not the backbone of a completely linked transit system, it won't be used, won't meet ridership expectations, and will act as the SkyWay does (or MARTA or the MetroFail,) as a physical example of why mass transit shouldn't be invested in.

Great point!

[AaroniusLives]

aaronious, great argument.  I haven't researched it, but I believe you in that just because something is a TOD, it doesn't mean the residents will use the transit.  What I say is, what difference does it make?  If a $100 million dollar investment in rail spurs $600 million in dense, walkable TODs, who cares if they hop on the train??  That's a 600% return on the city's money in development for the price of an overpass.  stjr would jump all over it for being inefficient and a waste, but I see it as a net positive.

Captain Zissou, I believe the argument is thus: why spend the $100 million when you can get the $600 million in dense, walkable TODs without spending the $100 million? Now, I'm not making that argument. A TOD without a transit component seems like a wasted opportunity, but if I were a bean counter, one could make that argument stick.

To use Atlanta's Atlantic Station (arguably the dumbest name ever for a development that has no transit station and is in a landlocked city,) as an example again, the development is basically built over a multi-tiered parking deck (indeed, the symbol of Atlanta is the parking garage,) encouraging people to drive to a place where they can then walk. As another example, a South Florida city named Coral Springs has a TOD-lite area called The Walk, which has the same paradox: a facsimile of a dense, urban environment that people never actually walk to. (To be entirely fair, The Walk is as "lite" as one can get: it's essentially a strip-mall done over in TOD-drag. It's like the RuPaul of New Urbanism.)

In many ways, this is kind of like the Walt Disney World approach to urbanism. One of the more subversive appeals to going to a Disney theme park in the United States is the subtle sell of a pedestrian-friendly environment. People drive to (or fly and then drive to) Walt Disney World to experience an idealized city that you can walk around in, sans fear of cars, of crime, of grime and of decay. Think about it: one traverses from a "Mickey Central Station" of transit to a perfect turn-of-the-century Main Street, to a "downtown of the future," to a central hub that takes you to other "districts" and so on and so forth.

Of course, it's not real urbanism; nobody lives on Main Street or in Tomorrowland. But people like the "experience" of being in a pedestrian-friendly place without actually completing the circle: why don't I have this pedestrian-friendliness where I live and work? Why is the ability to walk from one place to another a rare commodity in communities all over the country? My parents are living examples of this inability to connect the dots; they love visiting me in Georgetown, and one of their favorite activities is to go down to Mizner Park and eat, shop and people watch...before they go to the parking deck, get back in their SUV and drive home to their overpriced development home behind the guard gates.

Don't get me wrong, there are many New Urban developments that both increase transit usage and facilitate growth into a more sustainable, walkable fabric of urbanity. I'm just saying that it's not necessarily the rule, and that one could make the argument that it's a lot to spend on the chicken to get the egg.

It's why I urge a "complete connection" strategy going forward towards a mass transit system in Jacksonville. If the spine of the system is light-rail (ideally both a north-south and an east-west spur,) then the other points on the compass need to feed into that system via easy-to-use, clean, circulating buses that head to and from the spine. Moreover, if those bus stops are typical Floridian examples of transit hell (which is to say a slab of concrete labeled "bench," with no protection from the elements,) you've already reduced the system to a 2nd class status. People want to use transit when they feel that it's not a massive step down. So, it's not just completing the circle, it's making sure the completion extends to the nodes that connect to the spine.

I know that BRT isn't preferred as the Jacksonville option, and with good reason: the United States has piss-poor implementation of BRT. But the city-county-region could learn a lesson or three from the BRT systems in South America, where they connect their buses to actual, real stations, as opposed to concrete slabs on the side of the road. (Heck, DC could learn from them; it totally sucks to wait for a bus on the side of the road in the swamp heat/bitter cold/November rain.) So while Jax probably shouldn't use BRT for their mass transit system, they could take the lessons of simple station design from Curtiba's BRT and create a bus system that links to the light rail system...with station that folks would want to use.

[AaroniusLives]

What I do find interesting, however, is that while rail transit usually is legislated to spur transit-oriented, dense development, it doesn't necessarily translate into increased ridership on the rail transit next to said transit-oriented development.

I believe another factor is walkability.  Once you get up to a certain level of density and decent street interaction, the pedestrian mode of travel (the greenest of all) becomes dominant.

thelakelander , that's not always true. Remember, a great deal of these developments are islands of urbanity in a sea of suburbia. There's not a continuous grid of dense, urban streets to walk upon. Miami's "Downtown Dadeland/Downtown Kendall" TOD is the perfect example of this. You can walk around the TOD, but it's not advisable to walk beyond the TOD. At present, it's not connected to another TOD, another set of densely populated streets and services. Arlington's Orange Line off the DC Metro represents a critical mass of five TODs located seamlessly next to one another...in effect a really large island to explore before one goes off the grid and into suburbia.

Am I disputing the value of these TODs? Of course not. In many ways, they represent a phenomenal first step towards a New Urban future. You have to start somewhere, correct? I'd rather have people driving to a TOD and then experience the enjoyment of a pedestrian-friendly environment than not. But until the islands link into a continuous fabric (and in that case, transit use should skyrocket,) people are merely trading "driving from nowhere to nowhere" for "driving from nowhere to somewhere."

[Captain Zissou]

Aaronius, I'd rather not spend the $100 mil either, but in Jax I don't see the development happening otherwise.  It's like promising desert so your kids will eat vegetables.  While the vegetables are good for the children, the kids refuse to eat them unless there's a reward.  So we tell city council that if they build commuter rail, they will get new shiny TOD's and dense development.  The commuter rail is good for the city without the TOD's but they refuse to do it otherwise.  We also can't just say 'change your policies and be more forward thinking and dense walkable development will come'. That's too nebulous.  We need something that's more cause and effect.

Build Choo Choo Train=Get Shiny Buildings.