Downtown Jacksonville Becoming Vacant

[stjr]

^I've already told you why its ineffective.  Its unreliable in its current state.  That's about all you need to know.  

Lake, has the Skyway been unreliable from Day 1, in your view?  Or, is this a more recent phenomenon?

Why do proponents of expansion and additional investment in operating the Skyway think it will be any more reliable than it is now?

If making the Skyway reliable would encourage people to use it and this would keep companies downtown, then why aren't companies demanding this rather than going through the upheaval and expense of moving?  Could it be companies don't see the value to the Skyway, even if "enhanced"?  Why isn't JTA/COJ offering this "solution"?  Could it be they also don't see the Skyway as a "fix"?

Why should citizens feel confident in expanding the Skyway or buses or adding streetcars, etc. when there appears to be no confidence or interest from emplyoyers, employees, developers/landlords/property owners, JTA, or the COJ, based on use and support, in the existing Skyway and its "parking to employer" mission?  In other words, is the Skyway giving mass transit a black eye in Jax?

These are the questions I keep asking as I think the answers to them say much about the Skyway and its negative impact on mass transit and downtown Jax.

[thelakelander]

Lake, has the Skyway been unreliable from Day 1, in your view?  Or, is this a more recent phenomenon?

Its been unreliable since Day 1.  However, the recent service cuts have made it more unreliable.

Why do proponents of expansion and additional investment in operating the Skyway think it will be any more reliable than it is now?

I'm not a proponent of expansion without first investing in the regional fixed system that was originally intended to feed it riders.  However, I do believe that it can be better utilized to make it more reliable than it has ever been.  I've mentioned several options for better utilization in just about every thread that pops up about the skyway.

If making the Skyway reliable would encourage people to use it and this would keep companies downtown, then why aren't companies demanding this rather than going through the upheaval and expense of moving?

JTA and our local government should be the ones to lead the way with public investment.  The majority of companies aren't the civic type and are more concerned about what they specialize in and their profitability.  If the numbers don't work, they simply vote with their feet.  

Could it be companies don't see the value to the Skyway, even if "enhanced"?  Why isn't JTA/COJ offering this "solution"?  Could it be they also don't see the Skyway as a "fix"?

JTA/COJ isn't offering any solution other than planting trees.  I don't think their position has anything to do with the skyway, PCT or bus. DT isn't a real priority.

Why should citizens feel confident in expanding the Skyway or buses or adding streetcars, etc. when there appears to be no confidence or interest from emplyoyers, employees, JTA, or the COJ, based on use and support, in the existing Skyway and its "parking to employer" mission?  In other words, is the Skyway giving mass transit a black eye in Jax?

Imo, Jacksonville's leaders give it a black eye.  I just don't see what any of this has to do with the skyway.  We have a toxic downtown that suffers from an assortment of defects.  Btw, the citizens are the people forcing JTA to talk streetcars and commuter rail.  Without us residents demanding better mobility options, we would be further behind than what we are right now.

These are the questions I keep asking as I think the answers to them say much about the Skyway and its negative impact on mass transit and downtown Jax.

I think you're on a planet by yourself on this one.  I just don't see what the skyway has to do with Adecco paying $500k for parking or downtown's leasing rates being higher than the burbs.

[stjr]

These are the questions I keep asking as I think the answers to them say much about the Skyway and its negative impact on mass transit and downtown Jax.

I think you're on a planet by yourself on this one.  I just do see what the skyway has to do with Adecco paying $500k for parking or downtown's leasing rates being higher than the burbs.

Lake, the Skyway was sold as a downtown economic development tool.  Adecco and others leaving downtown over the issue of "employee accessibility" is about as on point to downtown mass transit as it gets.  For Jax, that's the Skyway and buses.

The Skyway was sold as the jobs site connection for auto commuters which is likely what most of these companies employ.  It looks to me like there is, thus, a direct connection between the success/failure of the Skyway and what these companies claim is a reason to leave downtown.  None of them cited the Riverwalk, the Landing, restaurants, housing, or any of the other factors that we here feel will create a holistic downtown.  They are interested in the "now" and what we have "now" is the Skyway.

The elephant in the room, I have always believed, is that employees don't want to ride the Skyway from a parking garage or lot.  It's just not user friendly.  If employees won't ride it from a garage, why should anyone think commuters will connect to it from cars, buses, and streetcars, or use it in connection with urban residential development?

To conclude, I think I am on the right planet:  "Down to Earth", not "Pie in the Sky"!  

[thelakelander]

Lake, the Skyway was sold as a downtown economic development tool.  Adecco and others leaving downtown over the issue of "employee accessibility" is about as on point to downtown mass transit as it gets.  For Jax, that's the Skyway and buses.

It seems like we've been over this a thousand times before.  An unreliable transit service does no one any good.  It really doesn't matter how something is sold if it doesn't work.  Skyway, streetcar, bus, commuter rail, jitney....it just doesn't matter.

The Skyway was sold as the jobs site connection for auto commuters which is likely what most of these companies employ.  It looks to me like there is, thus, a direct connection between the success/failure of the Skyway and what these companies claim is a reason to leave downtown.  None of them cited the Riverwalk, the Landing, restaurants, housing, or any of the other factors that we here feel will create a holistic downtown.

The answer is one you don't want to accept.  That short term answer is to find a way to better run and utilize your existing mass transit operations.  Unfortunately for you, the skyway is a part of the existing transit network.

They are interested in the "now" and what we have "now" is the Skyway.

So let's find a way to better utilize it in the short term while we continue to work on long term solutions.

The elephant in the room, I have always believed, is that employees don't want to ride the Skyway from a parking garage.  It's just not user friendly.

The true elephant in the room is your comment that I put in bold.  To get better utilization out of it, it has to become "user friendly" or in other words, "reliable."

If employees won't ride it from a garage, why should anyone think commuters will connect to it from cars, buses, and streetcars, or use it in connection with urban residential development?

Its all about being "reliable" and "user friendly."  One of these days we should get together and ride the thing together.  I'm sure the conversation will be a good one.

To conclude, I think I am on the right planet:  "Down to Earth", not "Pie in the Sky"!  [/b]

Well, since we're in the same spot, lets talk about utilizing short term improvements to help alleviate the problems facing downtown now.

[stjr]

That short term answer is to find a way to better run and utilize your existing mass transit operations.  Unfortunately for you, the skyway is a part of the existing transit network.

So let's find a way to better utilize it in the short term while we continue to work on long term solutions.

Its all about being "reliable" and "user friendly."

OK, to pick up on Ock's previous Skyway points, it's already there and can be brought up to a "reliable and user friendly" level (not to be confused with an expansion, mind you) with minimal additional investment.  So, why don't you, Ock, and Stephen march into JTA, JEDC, and City Hall and tell them to fix these "easy" things that Ock says can be done to make it more "reliable and user friendly".  With companies citing this as a reason for moving from downtown, they should all be willing to make the "minor" investment in what is there now to bring it to the desired level and stabilize at least the status quo downtown.

I will be interested to hear what response you get.

[stjr]

Its been unreliable since Day 1. 

Interesting comment, Lake.

[Ocklawaha]

OK, to pick up on Ock's previous Skyway points, it's already there and can be brought up to a "reliable and user friendly" level (not to be confused with an expansion, mind you) with minimal additional investment.  So, why don't you, Ock, and Stephen march into JTA, JEDC, and City Hall and tell them to fix these "easy" things that Ock says can be done to make it more "reliable and user friendly".  With companies citing this as a reason for moving from downtown, they should all be willing to make the "minor" investment in what is there now to bring it to the desired level and stabilize at least the status quo downtown.

I will be interested to hear what response you get.[/b]

Exactly what we've been doing for the last 5 years...

Recent discoveries we've made include such gems as not only was the Skyway never completed, it wasn't even built to conceptual plans, nor did it meet the "requirements" set forth by the City in such broad area's as "Stations".  As Lake says, it's not the Skyway that has failed us, rather it is the JTA and the COJ that has failed both downtown and the Skyway.  We keep expecting the "SANTA FE" but we have only made a "LIONEL" investment in money or methods...

OCKLAWAHA

[Jerry Moran]

Ten years later, none of that is fixed yet, and the downtown is emptying out.

You simply cannot tell people.

To date the DVI has received more than 15 million dollars to help stabilize downtown.

Do you have any clue what me and John Allen could have done with that much money?  And forget about all the joint projects that got funded by the other agencies.

Very poignant, Stephen.  I want to make an extensive post about the article, but need to follow up on something first.

Has DVI implemented a single original idea in it's 10 year run that has made a positive impact on downtown, and just what the hell did they do with our $15 million?

Video from WJXT

http://www.news4jax.com/video/23958177/ (You have to watch the 15 second mattress commercial first.)

[CS Foltz]

To me, this is just one more glaring example of the waste,corruption and Nifty Fifty cracking all of us! If DVI has spent 15 Million Dollars to this point, looking at downtown......just one more example of money down the tubes! I don't think we will get much of anything happening until the current administration is gone, JTA has had everyone removed from the top level, so-called management, and we get the chance to regroup and start over! There is just too much of the GOB Network still running everything and it shows.......there needs to be a unifying group or individual to take lead and all of these issues  have to be addressed at one single time or we are all hoisted and hung out to dry! We have some time till the next election and I hope that some of the 10 plus Mayoral Candidates start engaging the citizens and preparing to hit the ground running!

[thelakelander]

OK, to pick up on Ock's previous Skyway points, it's already there and can be brought up to a "reliable and user friendly" level (not to be confused with an expansion, mind you) with minimal additional investment.  So, why don't you, Ock, and Stephen march into JTA, JEDC, and City Hall and tell them to fix these "easy" things that Ock says can be done to make it more "reliable and user friendly".  With companies citing this as a reason for moving from downtown, they should all be willing to make the "minor" investment in what is there now to bring it to the desired level and stabilize at least the status quo downtown.

I will be interested to hear what response you get.[/b]

We have, right along with changing the parking policies, not building the Main Street pocket park, stopping BRT, pushing the FEC/Amtrak project, investing in streetcars, commuter rail and adding multimodal alternatives to road-only projects.  In this town, you always get an initial cold shoulder from leadership.  If you hit them over the head with enough logic, time and time again, sometimes they come around (ex. Landing parking, commuter rail studies and elimination of BRT from Adams Street, etc.).

[BridgeTroll]

If you hit them over the head with enough logic, time and time again, sometimes they come around

Keep hitting em Lake...

[sheclown]

what is the objective of the proposed downtown parking overlay?

l Type and Number:  Ordinance 2010-449

Sponsor:  Council President at the Request of the Mayor

Date of Introduction:  June 8, 2010

Committee(s) of Reference:  LUZ

Date of Analysis:  June 10, 2010

Type of Action:  Ordinance Code Amendment

Bill Summary:  This bill amends Section 656.361.16, Ordinance Code, to provide that the downtown off-street parking overlay shall not be subject to the requirements of the parking lot landscaping matrix.  Section 656.604 is amended to state that there shall be no maximum number of off-street parking spaces for single-family dwellings.  Dental offices or clinics are to have 3 (rather than 4) spaces for each 1,000 square feet of gross floor area.  Provisions for industrial, wholesale, warehouse, storage, and similar uses are revised to allow calculation of parking ratios for the off-street parking overlay based upon 1 space for each 5,000 square feet of gross floor area, or 1 per employee on the peak shift, whichever is greater.  It is required that professional and business office uses and business, commercial, or personal services establishments meet or exceed the landscaping requirements contained in the parking lot landscaping matrix.  The landscaping requirements of Chapter 656, Part 12, relative to vehicular use area interior landscaping, perimeter landscaping adjacent to streets, and buffer standards relating to uncomplimentary land uses and zoning are revised to specify provisions and exceptions for professional and business office uses and business, commercial, or personal services establishments.  Section 656.1601 is amended to add definitions for the terms “pervious parking” and “pervious paving materials.”  The Figure B, parking lot landscaping matrix, in Section 656.607 is replaced.

Background Information:  Information on file indicates that the Planning and Development Dept. requested these changes.

Policy Impact Area:  Planning and Development; Zoning Code; Parking Requirements; Landscaping

Fiscal Impact:  Undetermined

Analyst:  Campbell

[vicupstate]

One thing that DT Jax has had going for it, even though the problems were obvious, was the large employment base.  Now even that is threatened by the lack of foresight, attention and planning to bring DT back, as so many other cities have done.

This really isn't a 'new' problem, high office vacancy has been around for well over two decades. It has been >15% for as long as I can remember.  DT Lease rates are already very low.  Charlotte's rates exceed $32 a foot.  

The DT rates will ALWAYS be higher than Suburban, because the costs of highways is not paid by the businesses that build out there.  The high cost of DT land and garages will always keep DT rates above Southside ones.  

The Charlotte business community peer pressures 'civic mindedness' that helps keep the DT office market growing.  You can't be considered a 'big dog' there unless you are DT.  The business culture is totally different in JAX.  There is no consideration other than the 'bottom line'.    

[Traveller]

Two large companies, Rayonier and Adecco, are moving out, and Life of the South has said it is seriously considering leaving.

For the record, Rayonier is moving to Riverplace Tower on the southbank, not to the burbs.  The primary driver there was office rental rates, not necessarily parking.  Rayonier's CEO was actually quite dedicated to keeping the company downtown, just not necessarily on the northbank.

[fsujax]

The one thing that will help turn Downtown is commuter rail....connect the burbs to Downtown!!!!